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Leopard vs. T-50


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Target_7 #1 Posted Jan 22 2012 - 22:29

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I am grinding on the heavy (KV-3) and TDs (Stug and SU-85) so am looking for some "light relief."  I can go straight to either the Leo or the T-50 with free exp. Which do you think is better.  (I am not asking this question on the USSR thread.) It seems to be the Leo with tracks, big motor and big gun.  Is that correct?  I am not really aiming for the Tier V in either line b/c I don't know how long it would take me to get the exp. so am looking for being here at Tier IV.  I think I would like to sneak scout and reamin hidden but want to fly when needed at punch hard when I can.  I like the idea of active camo being on all the time for lights.  If the crew is at 100% with camo skills it seems this thing would be pretty hard to spot.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

AsianRanger98 #2 Posted Jan 22 2012 - 22:53

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T-50 has a smaller frame than Leopard... but Leopard is sexier. They are pretty much equal. In their tier battles they do just fine, and in higher tier battles, they do what they are built to do; scout. There really isn't too much of a difference but I personally prefer the Leopard. You should try both of them out.

Superspeed007 #3 Posted Jan 22 2012 - 22:56

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both tanks are very fun, prior to the t-5 light's being put in the game the leopard was the best t-4 light and could very easily cause mayhem for teams, but now t-5 lights are the way to go, so i would recommend looking at the light tank after the t-50 or the leopard the t-50-2 is extremely agile gun can pen weak areas of all tanks t-8 and down, and can circle many other tanks in the game, the VK2801 is fairly heavy and isn't necessarily a scout, its turning is terrible, but the gun is solid and can kill other scouts very very easy, and can inflict a good chunk of pain to other tanks if they are not paying attention

even though you aren't aiming for the t-5 version once you get to one you won't likely go back to the t-4, i kept my t-50 once i got the 50-2 but I haven't touched my t-4 light since, so I would very much recommend keeping the t-5's in consideration

Toasted_Rofls #4 Posted Jan 22 2012 - 22:57

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The T-50 is superior in basically every way but health. Seriously. I played both, and I managed a 54% win rate with my Leopard and a 61% win rate with my T-50. Obviously, one of these tanks is superior in the scouting role. Not only that, the average damage dealt per a game in my T-50 was much, much higher then it was in my Leopard.

Also, the VK 2801 sucks now, but the T-50-2 is as good as ever. Basically, stop you German lights grind at the Luchs, which is a tank well, well worth getting and keeping.

Tazilon #5 Posted Jan 23 2012 - 04:20

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I would say T-50 if you are serious about staying at tier IV and Leopard if you think just maybe you will want a tier V later on.

Toasted_Rofls #6 Posted Jan 23 2012 - 04:28

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View PostTazilon, on Jan 23 2012 - 04:20, said:

I would say T-50 if you are serious about staying at tier IV and Leopard if you think just maybe you will want a tier V later on.

No, you get the T-50 if you want to get a good tier 4 and tier 5 tank, you get the Leopard if you just want an average tier 4 and a terrible tier 5.

Basically, don't listen to other people here, trust me on this, I own all the end tier scout tanks, including the tier 7 French one, you want to get a T-50, I promise you this. The T-50 is the best tier 4 tank, hands down, and the T-50-2 is the best tier 5 light tank, hands down. Look at global win rates if you want proof, the T-50-2 is still outperforming every other light, and the VK 2801 is now the worst tank in the game statistically now due to the HE nerf.

Start2 #7 Posted Jan 23 2012 - 14:39

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Jan 23 2012 - 04:28, said:

No, you get the T-50 if you want to get a good tier 4 and tier 5 tank, you get the Leopard if you just want an average tier 4 and a terrible tier 5.

Basically, don't listen to other people here, trust me on this, I own all the end tier scout tanks, including the tier 7 French one, you want to get a T-50, I promise you this. The T-50 is the best tier 4 tank, hands down, and the T-50-2 is the best tier 5 light tank, hands down. Look at global win rates if you want proof, the T-50-2 is still outperforming every other light, and the VK 2801 is now the worst tank in the game statistically now due to the HE nerf.

Absolutely correct Toasted_Rofls!

Had the Leo in beta further along than now, and the Leo was a terror. With the T50/T-50-2 tanks, the Leo is a second cousin (unfortunately). I am awaiting the physics patch before a shake out my Light lines, because I am hoping the Russians will lose some of their magical turning capabilities and become a little unstable the way they are driven now (even I drive them that way).

Go T-50, enjoy it while you can (for you will). The Lynx is also still a favorite to play with...sometimes top tier in the MM....very nice to have such a responsive vehicle at those lower level matches. (also good camo).

However, if you want the Light experience moving forward, the T-50 will hold you well.

Tazilon #8 Posted Jan 23 2012 - 14:54

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Jan 23 2012 - 04:28, said:

No, you get the T-50 if you want to get a good tier 4 and tier 5 tank, you get the Leopard if you just want an average tier 4 and a terrible tier 5.

Basically, don't listen to other people here, trust me on this, I own all the end tier scout tanks, including the tier 7 French one, you want to get a T-50, I promise you this. The T-50 is the best tier 4 tank, hands down, and the T-50-2 is the best tier 5 light tank, hands down. Look at global win rates if you want proof, the T-50-2 is still outperforming every other light, and the VK 2801 is now the worst tank in the game statistically now due to the HE nerf.

Yawn.  The 2801 blows away the T-50-2 overall.  We agree the T-50 beats out the Leopard, but the T-50-2 loses to the Cougar in everything except Banzai Rush scouting.  Where is the link to these mysterious global win rates you speak of; I can't find them in a search query.  Based on what I've seen in game, if the 2801 does truly suffer at win rate, it is because the vast majority of 2801 drivers have no clue how to drive them.  They seem to think "scouting" means Banzai Rushes; which is often the very worst way to employ your Cougar.

I have over 1000 battles in the VK-2801 since the 7.1 patch and I still love it.  How many do you have in it toasted_rofls?  Based on your previous posts, you didn't like the tank even before the patch.

Madox76 #9 Posted Jan 24 2012 - 00:09

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T-50 is just a blast speed accel decent guns.  While Leopard was defeintly a bit tougher, once I had Teir 5 I kept the T-50 but immediatly dumped the Leo.  T-50 I run daily alogn wtih T-50-2 there jsut fun little tanks.

Toasted_Rofls #10 Posted Jan 24 2012 - 01:38

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View PostTazilon, on Jan 23 2012 - 14:54, said:

Yawn.  The 2801 blows away the T-50-2 overall.  We agree the T-50 beats out the Leopard, but the T-50-2 loses to the Cougar in everything except Banzai Rush scouting.  Where is the link to these mysterious global win rates you speak of; I can't find them in a search query.  Based on what I've seen in game, if the 2801 does truly suffer at win rate, it is because the vast majority of 2801 drivers have no clue how to drive them.  They seem to think "scouting" means Banzai Rushes; which is often the very worst way to employ your Cougar.

I have over 1000 battles in the VK-2801 since the 7.1 patch and I still love it.  How many do you have in it toasted_rofls?  Based on your previous posts, you didn't like the tank even before the patch.

Pay more attention to my post next time, you will realize while I believed the VK 2801 to be the worst tier 5 light tank, I also enjoyed playing it the most of the three. It was easily my favorite scout tank to use in the game, it was simply enjoyable, and effective, but I was adamant that allthough effective, the other tier 5 lights where simply more effective then it. That did not make it a bad tank, no where near, but it was underperforming compared to the other tier 5 scouts, and that is why you would always see me asking for a buff to it, not because the VK 2801 was bad, but because the other tanks where better.

Yes, you have more battles then I do, by a huge margin. I will give you this. However, I perform better then you, and have a wider range of experience in terms of types of tanks played. You have a 52% win rate in your VK 2801, and a 55% win rate in your Troll-50-2. That means your Troll-50-2 is outperforming your VK 2801 by a noticeable amount. I have a 54% win rate in my VK 2801, and a 60% win rate in my Troll-50-2. That is an even bigger difference. Explain why your "superior scout" is underperforming compared to the tank you claim is inferior to it. You also accuse me of thinking scouting means "Banzai Rushes" alone, which is also untrue.

I'd like to point out the T34 can perform in the hands of an above average player, and that most players have no idea how to play it. Guess what? Wargaming has deemed it bad enough to just replace the entire thing. The VK 2801 is on a similar boat, except the VK 2801 offers almost nothing over the T-50-2 now except more HP, while at least the T34 has something over the other tier 9 heavies that can really make a difference. The derp is terrible after the HE nerf, don't try to convince me other wise, I've used it, and I've used HE on many other tanks, and I have come to the same conclusion as almost everyone else, that HE is just not good anymore. I could take off 9% from the front of an IS-4 before the HE nerf, now I struggle to remove 12% from the front of a KV, a tank with literally half the armor thickness. Don't give me that "you need to aim better" BS people love to spew off either, the entire point of the VK was to reliably be able to hurt every tank in the game from a distance, thus providing support for your teammates via a constant output of damage. You where also supposed to be highly mobile, enough so that you can fill the role of a scout if needed, as well as get to important spots on the battlefield rapidly and go arty hunting. The term tier 5 scouts is really quite inaccurate, the only actual pure tier 5 scout is the T-50-2. The Chaffee and VK 2801's are more like small medium tank/scout tank hybrids.

Perhaps you just know something that I do not. Please, tell me, what exactly does the VK 2801 offer over the Chaffee or the Troll-50-2 that is good enough to keep it from being horribly outclassed, and how to you play it properly?

Kalinin #11 Posted Jan 24 2012 - 03:25

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In my own experience just fighting them, particularly in my my AMX 12t and 13 75, the T-50 and T-50-2 are far superior than their counterparts. Why? The stupidly absurd magical mobility. The 50-2 especially is one of the very few tanks I never want see in my AMX tanks. (The others being the T6 Shermans.) Do you have any idea how maddening it is to get circle-strafed in an AMX 13 75?
And yet the VK2801 doesn't even get what it was planned to have in RL and the Leo we have is the light version. They're downright easy to fight compared to the 50 and 50-2.

Tazilon #12 Posted Jan 24 2012 - 03:46

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Jan 24 2012 - 01:38, said:

Pay more attention to my post next time, you will realize while I believed the VK 2801 to be the worst tier 5 light tank, I also enjoyed playing it the most of the three. It was easily my favorite scout tank to use in the game, it was simply enjoyable, and effective, but I was adamant that allthough effective, the other tier 5 lights where simply more effective then it. That did not make it a bad tank, no where near, but it was underperforming compared to the other tier 5 scouts, and that is why you would always see me asking for a buff to it, not because the VK 2801 was bad, but because the other tanks where better.

Yes, you have more battles then I do, by a huge margin. I will give you this. However, I perform better then you, and have a wider range of experience in terms of types of tanks played. You have a 52% win rate in your VK 2801, and a 55% win rate in your Troll-50-2. That means your Troll-50-2 is outperforming your VK 2801 by a noticeable amount. I have a 54% win rate in my VK 2801, and a 60% win rate in my Troll-50-2. That is an even bigger difference. Explain why your "superior scout" is underperforming compared to the tank you claim is inferior to it. You also accuse me of thinking scouting means "Banzai Rushes" alone, which is also untrue.

I'd like to point out the T34 can perform in the hands of an above average player, and that most players have no idea how to play it. Guess what? Wargaming has deemed it bad enough to just replace the entire thing. The VK 2801 is on a similar boat, except the VK 2801 offers almost nothing over the T-50-2 now except more HP, while at least the T34 has something over the other tier 9 heavies that can really make a difference. The derp is terrible after the HE nerf, don't try to convince me other wise, I've used it, and I've used HE on many other tanks, and I have come to the same conclusion as almost everyone else, that HE is just not good anymore. I could take off 9% from the front of an IS-4 before the HE nerf, now I struggle to remove 12% from the front of a KV, a tank with literally half the armor thickness. Don't give me that "you need to aim better" BS people love to spew off either, the entire point of the VK was to reliably be able to hurt every tank in the game from a distance, thus providing support for your teammates via a constant output of damage. You where also supposed to be highly mobile, enough so that you can fill the role of a scout if needed, as well as get to important spots on the battlefield rapidly and go arty hunting. The term tier 5 scouts is really quite inaccurate, the only actual pure tier 5 scout is the T-50-2. The Chaffee and VK 2801's are more like small medium tank/scout tank hybrids.

Perhaps you just know something that I do not. Please, tell me, what exactly does the VK 2801 offer over the Chaffee or the Troll-50-2 that is good enough to keep it from being horribly outclassed, and how to you play it properly?

Win rates are the most over-hyped stat in the game.  In pub matches, they are almost completely meaningless.  I do not compare win rates for anything.  For example, I can show you strings of 200 games in a row in the 2801 where I topped 60% win rates.  Was I playing differently than the day I only had 44%?  NOPE!   But the skill of my teammates changed drastically.  At the same time, some days the shots hit and some days they don't, even though you aim exactly the same spot.  There is an ebb and flow far beyond your control.

The T-50-2 and VK-2801 play COMPLETELY differently.  If you need a deep rush at the beginning of the game, certainly take the T-50-2.  If you need a tank to mop up at the end or add firepower anytime in between, the T-50-2 is far inferior.  I have always maintained the T-50-2 is hands down, the best pure scout in the game.  That isn't the 2801's game.  It is a multipurpose tank.  It must be played that way to maximize its effectiveness.

Toasted_Rofls #13 Posted Jan 24 2012 - 04:32

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View PostTazilon, on Jan 24 2012 - 03:46, said:

Win rates are the most over-hyped stat in the game.  In pub matches, they are almost completely meaningless.  I do not compare win rates for anything.  For example, I can show you strings of 200 games in a row in the 2801 where I topped 60% win rates.  Was I playing differently than the day I only had 44%?  NOPE!   But the skill of my teammates changed drastically.  At the same time, some days the shots hit and some days they don't, even though you aim exactly the same spot.  There is an ebb and flow far beyond your control.

The T-50-2 and VK-2801 play COMPLETELY differently.  If you need a deep rush at the beginning of the game, certainly take the T-50-2.  If you need a tank to mop up at the end or add firepower anytime in between, the T-50-2 is far inferior.  I have always maintained the T-50-2 is hands down, the best pure scout in the game.  That isn't the 2801's game.  It is a multipurpose tank.  It must be played that way to maximize its effectiveness.

No, win rate is not meaningless.

Anyhow, you still have not explained why the VK 2801 is so much better then the Troll-50-2. You win more games in your Troll-50-2, so obviously, it is outperforming your VK 2801 for you, and it is doing the same thing for me.

CaptainCool309 #14 Posted Jul 20 2012 - 22:04

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I agree 100% with Tazilion. Except for the Leo being inferior to the T-50, cause I am a firm believer in the Leo being the king of the tier 4 lights, and no none will ever change my opinion on that. If you look into Tazilions VK2801 scouting guide, i don't care how you bad you think the "Cougar" is, you'll definately be impressed by how the Vk2801 can peform in the hands of an excellent driver. The Leo ,t-50, vk2801, and t-50-2 are all wonderful tanks that each have thier own unique abilites. And when we learn how to use those abilities we can have a helluva lot of fun. :Smile_glasses:

Effreem #15 Posted Jul 23 2012 - 18:48

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I only have a Leo but played a good 30 rounds on my friends t-50. I prefer the Leo. Better view range, better speed, better gun, better toughness, worse acceleration and turret rotation and worse agility. But I smoke any t-50 I find (chaffee's still own my leo.)

Cant wait till I get the 2801.

EDIT: Someone posted this in another Leo thread this morning but I figured I would add it here.

The Leo isnt a pure scout. I have shifted the tide of games by zooming in and out of the enemy battle line distracting them and using my 60kph to get back out again (with 300 less HP normally!) Thats something I havent ever seen a t-50 do as effectively as the Leo! Or make an appearance on a line towards their backfield then about 10 seconds later (after your no longer spotted) turn around and get to the other side of the field before being spotted again. Causing them to pull resources off the front line to go hunt you down.

Edited by Effreem, Jul 23 2012 - 18:52.


DeadlyTreadly #16 Posted Aug 02 2012 - 11:12

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Doesn't the T-50 have something like twice the power-to-weight ratio of the Leopard?

Now, assuming you're not doing the usual T-50 'squirrel on methamphetamines' zooming, it does give you the instant acceleration to get out of bad spots the tide have battle has developed. I find my Leopard quite sluggish on the take off as it weighs about twice the weight of the T-50 with a similar horsepower engine. Passive scouting in the Leopard really needs it to be more nimble and brisk, but while it can get up to a fair speed on the long run it usually needs to make short sprints to new positions.

Berkeley199112 #17 Posted Oct 18 2012 - 02:23

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T-50 is better than the Leopard on everything accept speed litmit, armor, and ramming

Berkeley199112 #18 Posted Oct 18 2012 - 02:25

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Except*

Mhantaxx #19 Posted Nov 19 2012 - 19:09

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They play so completely differently that I would find it difficult to actually answer you with any "should."  If you like to "rodeo clown," dancing and juking to stay alive, with high agility and acceleration, but also a good passive scout if needed, the T50 is best.

I am personally frustrated with the Leopard, but playing it to get to the VK2801.  The Leopard is slow to accelerate, though fast top speed.  yet, when at top speed, you just can't turn much or you slow down and die.  If you passive scout, which it is good at, and you get spotted, you don't have the acceleration to get away.

However, in the right circumstance, you can cause havoc.  For example, stay alive until mid battle, see a hole in their lines and fly through, ram the first arty, shoot the other and bounce some shots of similar leveled lights or some meds trying to protect them.

If forced at gunpoint to choose, I would say T50 is the better overall scout.  But I know some masters of the leopard (though more the VK2801) and they are amazing.

EatingOrface #20 Posted Nov 21 2012 - 20:39

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ELC AMX...Can damage anything it faces, even higher tier battles.

Back on topic: Higher tier battles T50 does far better imo than the leo, this changes around in t4 battles (as I've gotten a steel wall on my leo in one game.)

Still, ELC is far superior to both in terms of light tanking (not scouting.)

Keep in mind I'm not a very good scout, just giving my more or less worthless .02c

Edited by EatingOrface, Nov 21 2012 - 20:42.