106 replies to this topic

[Orinana]

Hi Panther Drivers and anyone with a 88mm/L56

This is essentially a bit of study into how effective is the 88mm/L56-well I put the data together and I found some interesting points:

At lower tiers 5-6 it clearly shows it will take more shots to kill a tank with the 75mm/L100. The penetration advantage doesnt matter because the 88mm/L56 can penetrate almost all tanks up to Tier7 FRONTALLY!! However at tiers 7-10 the data spikes and clearly shows that to kill a tank with the 75mm/L100 nearly doubles IN EVERY CASE!!!

The data clearly shows the 75mm/L100 will fail to penetrate the same Tier 8-10 tanks frontally on the turret as the 88mm/L56!! This is stunning piece of data because it will force the Panther 1 driver to flank regardless of which gun they are using! There is supporting evidence to suggest that a Panther 1 driver will be better off with the 88mm/L56 because it can penetrate almost all US and Russian tanks in the side and dishes out more damage. So there is an argument that what the Panther 1 really needs is more acceleration so it can play the role of sniper and flanker

The data  below uses the highest number of shots needed to kill a tank with either gun-The scenario in each case would be a one on one fight.

Conclusion-The 75mm/L100 provides an advantage against 3 tanks: KV5/IS4/IS7 and this not really an advantage since your unlikely to survive the encounter anyway regardless of which gun you have. In every other case the 88mm/L56 will do the job frontally and with a few exceptions you will need to flank


US
For most part US tanks will not fair well against the 88mm/L56-The 2 exceptions being the Jumbo and M6A2E1

Tier 5
M4-Sherman: 440HP/Hull Armor: 51/38/38(mm)/Turret Armor: 76/51/51(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 3
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 2

T1: 660HP/Hull Armor; 83/44/41(mm)/Turret Armor: 102/83/83(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 5
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 3

Tier 6
M4A3E8: 750HP/Hull Armor: 63/38/38(mm)/Turret Armor: 63/63/63(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 6
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 4

Jumbo: 730HP/Hull Armor: 101/76/38(mm)/Turret Armor: 177/152/152(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 6
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 4
88mm/L56 cannot penetrate frontal turret armor

M6: 870HP/Hull Armor: 102/44/41(mm)/Turret Armor: 102/83/83(mm
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 7
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 4

Tier 7

T-20: 1100HP/Hull Armor: 63/50/38(mm)/Turret Armor: 88/63/63(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 9
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 5

T-29: 1250HP/Hull Armor: 102/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 279/127/102(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 10
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 6
Both guns cannot penetrate frontal turret armor

Tier 8

Pershing: 1350HP/Hull Armor: 102/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 114/76/76(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 10
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 6

T-32: 1550HP/Hull Armor: 127/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 114/76/76(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 12
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 7

M6A2E1-1500HP/Hull Armor: 191/44/41(mm)/Turret Armor: 191/89/208(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 12
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 7
88mm/L56 must use flank shots only

Tier 9

Patton: 1750/Hull Armor: 102/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 102/76/76(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 13
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 8

T-34: 1900HP/Hull Armor: 102/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 279/127/102(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 15
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 8
Both guns cannot penetrate turret frontal armor

Tier 10

T-30-2200HP/Hull Armor: 102/76/51(mm)/Turret Armor: 279/127/102(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 17
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 10
Both guns cannot penetrate turret frontal armor


Russia
Russian tanks fair a bit better. The biggest threats to Panther 1 drivers are T-54/T-59/KV5/IS4/IS7.

Tier 6

T-34/85: 690HP/Hull Armor: 45/45/45(mm)/Turret Armor: 90/75/52(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 6
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 3

KV-3-870HP/Hull Armor: 120/90/75(mm)/Turret Armor: 100/100/75(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 7
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 4

KV-1s-810HP/Hull Armor: 75/60/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 82/75/75(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 6
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 4

Tier 7

T-43: 1100HP/Hull Armor: 76/60/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 80/60/80(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 9
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 5

KV-13: 1120HP/Hull Armor: 100/85/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 85/85/85(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 9
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 5

IS: 1230HP/Hull Armor: 120/90/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 100/90/90(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 10
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 6

Tier 8

T-44: 1300HP/Hull Armor: 90/75/45(mm)/Turret Armor: 120/90/75(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 10
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 6

T-54: 1650HP/Hull Armor: 120/80/45(mm)/Turret Armor: 200/108/65(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 13
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 7

T-59: 1300HP/Hull Armor: 100/80/45(mm)/Turret Armor: 200/104/65(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 10
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 6

IS-3: 1500HP/Hull Armor: 110/90/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 150/90/80(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 12
Number of Shots to kill with 88mm/L56: 7

KV-5: 1680HP/Hull Armor: 170/150/90(mm) /Turret Armor: 180/150/140(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 13


Tier 9

IS-4: 1790hp/Hull Armor: 140/160/100(mm)/Turret Armor: 170/170/160(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 14

Tier 10

IS-7: 2150HP/Hull Armor: 150/150/60(mm)/Turret Armor: 240/185/94(mm)
Number of Shots to kill with 75mm/L100: 16

[Lert]

Why are you comparing a 135mm pen gun to a 198mm pen gun? Don't you mean the 88 L/71 instead?

[Harkonen_siegetank]

Lert, on Feb 02 2012 - 03:54, said:

Why are you comparing a 135mm pen gun to a 198mm pen gun? Don't you mean the 88 L/71 instead?

Panther cant mount 88/71

@OP, You failed to include:

-range at which gun is effective, this is important because in order to pull off those shots you need to survive. And with the panther the closer you are the easier you die. This also ties with the accuracy of these guns

-RoF, time needed to pull off those shots.

[Orinana]

Lert, on Feb 02 2012 - 03:54, said:

Why are you comparing a 135mm pen gun to a 198mm pen gun? Don't you mean the 88 L/71 instead?

HI

Good question...umm no I mean the 88mm/L56- heres the thing. The 75mm/L100 penetrates 198mm is correct versus 135mm for 88mm/L56. At tier 9-10 most tanks have in excess of 200mm of frontal armor on the turret so neither gun will penetrate the frontal armor of the turrets.

However most tanks with a few exceptions have under 135mm of side armor on the hull and in most cases many turrets including those of quite a number of Tier9-10 tanks have less then 135mm of armor. This means the 88mm/L56 can penetrate the side hull armor of almost all tanks and side turret armor of most tanks

The 88mm shell has more power 240 versus 135 for the 75mm so it doles out more damage per shot. The longer you shoot at 1 target the more exposed you are to getting shot at when your trying to kill something.

I think a Panther 1 player may want to at least consider the 88mm/L56 and use more careful aiming and get the benefits of a bigger punch.

rene

[Orinana]

Harkonen_siegetank, on Feb 02 2012 - 03:55, said:

Panther cant mount 88/71

@OP, You failed to include:

-range at which gun is effective, this is important because in order to pull off those shots you need to survive. And with the panther the closer you are the easier you die. This also ties with the accuracy of these guns

-RoF, time needed to pull off those shots.

HI

Im using standard WOT numbers of there site and I believe its 100m.


Is the ROF better- well the 75mm is a little better but not enough to offset the loss in the amount of damage you can do-
88mm/L56x10 rpm x 240=2400 damage points per minute
75mm/L100x14 rpm x 135=1890 damage points per minute

YOur right about the range thing but think about this: The maps are not big 1000m max so your probably at shooting targets which are around 300m-400m away max and often your shooting at targets which are a lot closer say around 200-250m. The 75mm is a bit more accurate but not so much that it makes a big difference. Player skill/familiarity will compensate for the accuracy.

So now you have to factor in the closing distance of your target

A T-59 is approaching you at 300m at 30km-8m/s- Reload time with 75mm/L100 is around 6-7 seconds-That means the T59 has now closed to 250m by the time you fire your 2nd shot..by the time you fire your 3rd shot the T-59 is now about 124m away-Heres the thing you would still only get 3 shots off and the funny part is you would also get 3 shots off with the 88mm/L56..The difference is when the 75mm hits the T-59 in the flank it takes 10%-12%  off...wheres the 88mm/L56 when it hits the flank its taking about 20% off..when your in knife fighting range the 88mm/L56 is going to punch through as reliably as the 75mm/L100..Why..because neither gun can penetrate the frontal turret armor of the T-59..

In this situation the Panther 1 driver must aim for the hull since neither gun can penetrate the frontal turret armor..doesnt matter how far or close they are

rene

[LeftyDan]

I decided to check the math here to confirm or bust this. I assumed the rof for both guns to be max giving me the values of:

75 /100 : 15.38 rpm
88 /56.  : 10.53 rpm

Dividing by 60 (seconds) gave me this reload time:

75: 3.9 seconds
88: 5.7 seconds

Picking a common target, in this case a T29, and using your data on rounds to kill I came up with this:

75: 39 seconds
88: 34.2 seconds

So you are indeed correct. The advantage is to the 88 by 4.8 seconds. However, there could be a bounce by the 88 due to its' lower penetration value. Making this all subject to a tankers preference. This all presumes max stats and that shells are completely penetrating and doing max damage.

If you want to double check my math that would be fine by me.

[FeeTFooD]

One thing I disagree with is that the accuracy of the 75/100 is a lot better than the 88/56, and on the larger maps with more open areas (Malinovka, Erlenberg, Sand River, El Hallouf, Prolorovka) you are much more likely to reliably hit your target on soft spots from 400m+.

[Gochtune]

You may say that 88 L/56 is better, but as you can see...
Why chose it over 75 L/100?

L/100 has higher penetration value, better chances in damaging critical modules because of it high penetration and remarkable accuracy at long range with good aim time. While the damage is piss poor, L/100 also have a good velocity.

L/56, on the other hand only effective, or adequate in maximum tier 7 fight. In Tier 8? You have to flank. Panther isn't suited to flank, 3002 DB is. It's like you're putting a brawler gun on a sniper tank. And about your Type 59 theory... can you guarantee that every shot of your 88 penetrate it's armor? It's almost impossible to do that frontally, against a moving 59. 75 L/100 can penetrate 59 hull at range, while 88 will have a difficulty. Not to mention sloping on the tanks you're facing.

As for tier 9 and 10 armor, I want to ask something. Can 88 L/56 penetrate E-100 side turret on at least... 400m range? Just a question.

[Thompson153]

YES, it does more alpha, but I do want to ask you these questions and state some things from my experience with the gun and against it.

-Why do you think people want a penetration boost for the L/56?

-Why do you think 99% of the elited Panther populatioon use the L/100? Because it looks nice?

-Which gun will go through the tanks you're facing? Sure, the L/56 is nice in the lower tiers, but it's not suited for a Tier VII tank.

-I would personally have better accuracy and better RoF if it meant I could support from a hill versus a gun that needs to flank to be effective.

-The 88 is basically a large L/70 with better alpha and DPM. In-game, it actually has less pen than the L/70. If the L/70 can't get through, the 88 will not.

-The gun needs to flank to be effective against anything over Tier VII, and even some Tier VII with the Shell Normalization. Trust me, when you bounce against a T29 with the American 90, there's no way you're going through with the 88.

-I've noticed my Pershing giving lots of trouble to users of the 88L/56. They can't penetrate my turret, and even the slightest angle will make them bounce against my front. Now, if they'll bounce against that, then tell me how it'll penetrate a T-44 or Panther II, which are just 1 Tier above...

[SoukouDragon]

Straight up front on a flat piece of armor, maybe the much greater penetration capability of the 75L100 is not so advantageous compared to the 88L56 because of what OP has mentioned about the thickness levels of armor on different tanks.

But after factoring in the slopes and angling of tanks and distance, the 75L100 has an incrediable penetration advantage over the 88L56.

[Thompson153]

SoukouDragon, on Feb 02 2012 - 19:11, said:

Straight up front on a flat piece of armor, maybe the much greater penetration capability of the 75L100 is not so advantageous compared to the 88L56 because of what OP has mentioned about the thickness levels of armor on different tanks.

But after factoring in the slopes and angling of tanks and distance, the 75L100 has an incrediable penetration advantage over the 88L56.

Exactly. On paper, it might look better, but when you realize 90% of the tanks your tier and up (and even some below) have sloped armor, then you need a higher pen gun.

[Effreem]

Orinana, on Feb 02 2012 - 08:02, said:

HI

Im using standard WOT numbers of there site and I believe its 100m.


Is the ROF better- well the 75mm is a little better but not enough to offset the loss in the amount of damage you can do-
88mm/L56x10 rpm x 240=2400 damage points per minute
75mm/L100x14 rpm x 135=1890 damage points per minute

YOur right about the range thing but think about this: The maps are not big 1000m max so your probably at shooting targets which are around 300m-400m away max and often your shooting at targets which are a lot closer say around 200-250m. The 75mm is a bit more accurate but not so much that it makes a big difference. Player skill/familiarity will compensate for the accuracy.

So now you have to factor in the closing distance of your target

A T-59 is approaching you at 300m at 30km-8m/s- Reload time with 75mm/L100 is around 6-7 seconds-That means the T59 has now closed to 250m by the time you fire your 2nd shot..by the time you fire your 3rd shot the T-59 is now about 124m away-Heres the thing you would still only get 3 shots off and the funny part is you would also get 3 shots off with the 88mm/L56..The difference is when the 75mm hits the T-59 in the flank it takes 10%-12%  off...wheres the 88mm/L56 when it hits the flank its taking about 20% off..when your in knife fighting range the 88mm/L56 is going to punch through as reliably as the 75mm/L100..Why..because neither gun can penetrate the frontal turret armor of the T-59..

In this situation the Panther 1 driver must aim for the hull since neither gun can penetrate the frontal turret armor..doesnt matter how far or close they are

rene

Thats a pretty bad example. In either case the first thing a P1 driver SHOULD do is track the fast little guy. Then your not going to shoot at his frontal turret your going to shoot his lower hull. Why? Because you have the accuracy to hit him ANYWHERE you want at 300m(especially since tracking him probably exposed a weakspot as he slid to a stop.) Your example is more similar to what someone with a low accuracy gun would do (or someone who isnt very good at WOT.)

Here are a couple of ideas for more realistic scenarios.
jagdpanther at 500m shooting at the panther. T29 at 300m hull down or not. IS3 at 300m in urban area. Tiger 1 at 400m. T-50-2 or frenchie t5-t7 lights at 200-400m running at full speed at your arty. T8-t10 heavy at 300-500m front or flanked.

In every one of the situations above the 75L100 will preform better, yea it will take more shots to kill but by choosing your shot location you can consistantly damage your enemy and get hits on critical locations (i.e. ammo rack, gunner, driver, tracks, engine etc.) The 88L56 which I love on my VK's will not preform as well at longer ranges (the 88 has a higher Pen drop than the 75) as well as not being as accurate and hence more likely to hit a sloped or thick spot and bounce. The 88 does have an advantage at less than 300m but if your in a panther at those ranges your screwed already. Go get a 3002DB if you want to get in close.


EDIT: Doesnt the 75L100 have a 12rps ROF? That would put it around 5sec reload while the 88 with an 8-10rps ROF would be every 6-7 seconds. I think the 75 also aims faster.

[Boneduster]

The problem with panther and panther II drivers (most E-50 drivers catch this up by force) is that this tanks ARE NOT med tanks. They are just faster heavies. With a bad armor that is.

Flanking and circle tactics arent too much successfull in this tanks, but if you keep your distance, lets say, over 300 mtrs and shot, you will be "safe" and to do damage at that distances 75/L100 > 88/L56.

Even if the 88 Alpha is better, the 75 DPS is more reliavable and in the end, more eficient, more when you can "kill" the enemy tank crew reducing their performance and letting the bigger guns of your team take them out. Other thing most german tankers never take in count, DMG > Kill. Don`t force yourselfs out of a safety area just for a kill, you dont need kills, you better survive all the battle and dish out a lot of damage from safety than lose half your HP to kill one tank.

[Rypper]

Stopped reading at 'Hi'

There just no advantage in short 88 for a tank, that is too slow and unagile to be anything but a sniper and L100 is a far superior gun.

If you like short 88 and flanking, try DB or 3001H.

P.S. 2 030 battles in a Panther, 1499 kills, 54% hit, 627 damage per battle on average. I rest my case.

[Silty]

Orinana, on Feb 02 2012 - 03:43, said:

Hi Panther Drivers and anyone with a 88mm/L56

This is essentially a bit of study into how effective is the 88mm/L56-well I put the data together and I found some interesting points:

At lower tiers 5-6 it clearly shows it will take more shots to kill a tank with the 75mm/L100. The penetration advantage doesnt matter because the 88mm/L56 can penetrate almost all tanks up to Tier7 FRONTALLY!! However at tiers 7-10 the data spikes and clearly shows that to kill a tank with the 75mm/L100 nearly doubles IN EVERY CASE!!!

The data clearly shows the 75mm/L100 will fail to penetrate the same Tier 8-10 tanks frontally on the turret as the 88mm/L56!! This is stunning piece of data because it will force the Panther 1 driver to flank regardless of which gun they are using! There is supporting evidence to suggest that a Panther 1 driver will be better off with the 88mm/L56 because it can penetrate almost all US and Russian tanks in the side and dishes out more damage. So there is an argument that what the Panther 1 really needs is more acceleration so it can play the role of sniper and flanker

The data  below uses the highest number of shots needed to kill a tank with either gun-The scenario in each case would be a one on one fight.

Conclusion-The 75mm/L100 provides an advantage against 3 tanks: KV5/IS4/IS7 and this not really an advantage since your unlikely to survive the encounter anyway regardless of which gun you have. In every other case the 88mm/L56 will do the job frontally and with a few exceptions you will need to flank

Think alpha is important, but penetration and accuracy are not?  You are playing the wrong tank.  Trying to force a tank to do what it's not meant to is going to make it underperform.  Instead, go play one that fits your playstyle, like the IS.  390 damage, .4 accuracy, 175 penetration.  Same tier: 7.  Just admit it, your play style fits Soviet heavies, not German mediums.

[timwahoo]

As others have said, this writeup misses the point completely. You wasted a lot of time testing nothing

[zap123]

Yeah, congrats on the effort but your conclusions are completely wrong.  The 88 L/56 is a crap gun at tier 6, at tier 7 it is worthless.

[SumiXam]

zap123, on Feb 03 2012 - 07:00, said:

Yeah, congrats on the effort but your conclusions are completely wrong.  The 88 L/56 is a crap gun at tier 6, at tier 7 it is worthless.

If you think the 88L56 is sub-par at tiers 6 and 7, then it isn't being used correctly. I prefer the 75L100 on my Panther, but I run my 3601 with the 88L56, and quite successfully so through tier 7 and many tier 8 opponents (I know the 3601 doesn't have access to the 75L100). The 88L56 needs to be used at medium to close ranges. Beyond 300m penetration is iffy at best. Sub 300m flank and rear shots are where it's at with the 88L56. Even better is to pull around behind an otherwise occupied enemy and unload at close range, then scoot back. Repeat if they don't give chase.

Back to the Panther, I prefer to engage targets at the longest range possible because the Panther's armor suffers at close range. The 75L100 works better for my play style in the Panther. Using Orinana's Type 59 example, it doesn't take into account tracking the enemy. That is a most effective tool for the 75L100 because it can reliably track enemy tanks at range. Double track the opponent then pump a couple of rounds into them, rinse and repeat. The 88L56 bounces/misses too much for me at the ranges I prefer to engage with the Panther.

[Panzer4life]

Silty, on Feb 03 2012 - 00:32, said:

Think alpha is important, but penetration and accuracy are not?  You are playing the wrong tank.  Trying to force a tank to do what it's not meant to is going to make it underperform.  Instead, go play one that fits your playstyle, like the IS.  390 damage, .4 accuracy, 175 penetration.  Same tier: 7.  Just admit it, your play style fits Soviet heavies, not German mediums.

Actually, I'd recommend th VK3002 DB. It's top gun is the 88, and due to its mobility it can actually take advantage of the superior alpha and DPS of the 88

[Silty]

Panzer4life, on Feb 03 2012 - 22:33, said:

Actually, I'd recommend th VK3002 DB. It's top gun is the 88, and due to its mobility it can actually take advantage of the superior alpha and DPS of the 88

Okay, maybe you're right.  Either way, OP is trying to force a tank to do something it's not supposed to, instead of either adapting to the tank or picking a tank that does what he likes.  That's just completely wrong!  I mean, it's like using a Queen or King as a Pawn in Chess.

"oops, checkmate for me "