Jump to content


Panther 1-Shooting guide


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
106 replies to this topic

Pringworm #21 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 18:30

    Captain

  • Players
  • 17766 battles
  • 1,888
  • [SIG] SIG
  • Member since:
    07-31-2011
Going to have to disagree with the OP. I do not yet own a panther, but what I have seen from them on the fields of battle, is that they don't live long when they try to get up and close.

However I can't tell you the amount of times I have been hit my a mystery shell from out of no were that lights up my ammo rack or sets my engine on fire.

jankar #22 Posted Feb 10 2012 - 15:25

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 24188 battles
  • 542
  • Member since:
    05-04-2011
I have a question regarding the gun 7.5 cm KwK 45 L/100.

Specification states that this gun can inflict damage of 135 per AP shell. But what this number (135) means? Is this amount of HP taken away from the damaged vehicle?

Recently I played battle where there was a M4 Sherman sitting at the enemy base. Because it was AFK I could stop next to it and from the distance of about 15 m fire three clean shots at its side, all penetrating. However, the Sherman was still alive and before I could fire again, it was finished by my team mate. M4 Sherman has 400 HP, slightly less than accumulated damage caused by the gun: 3 x 135 = 405 > 400.

Is the damage of 135 applied to some penetrating shots only or the number does not correspond to HP value?

EDIT
After another battle with the same gun (7.5 cm KwK 45 L/100) - I hit a Löwe, penetrated its side armor and checked that it lost 9% of its HP. Because Löwe initial strength is 1650 HP, the shot caused damage between 140.25 and 155.10 HP, due to the rounding error. So, it looks like numbers in the specification are roughly correct. Question remains, why I could not destroy M4 Sherman with 3 shots?

JLK_250 #23 Posted Feb 10 2012 - 18:19

    Major

  • Players
  • 23925 battles
  • 2,031
  • [GMONK] GMONK
  • Member since:
    10-02-2011

View Postjankar, on Feb 10 2012 - 15:25, said:

I have a question regarding the gun 7.5 cm KwK 45 L/100.

Specification states that this gun can inflict damage of 135 per AP shell. But what this number (135) means? Is this amount of HP taken away from the damaged vehicle?


I can't answer your question (other than to say that yes, that's what that number means) but I will make one strong recommendation.   Get the Over Target Marker modification.   It will show you how much health each tank has left and also show how much they lose on each shot.   It's extremely valuable to determine how many shots will be necessary to finish them off.   Do a search in the forums and you'll find a link to the download.

Rypper #24 Posted Feb 10 2012 - 18:32

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 20929 battles
  • 3,107
  • [IOC] IOC
  • Member since:
    01-15-2011
135 is an average number, you can get the exact range by checking the ammunition. The actual damage inflicted can be 25% more or less, so, in your Panther's case, you can hit the tank for any damage between 101 and 169.

If you got low damage rolls on your 3 shots, Sherman (460 HP fully upgraded), may very well still be alive.

WAN0145 #25 Posted Feb 29 2012 - 14:06

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 21028 battles
  • 33
  • [-OP-] -OP-
  • Member since:
    06-14-2011
L100 is much better from long range, where your panther belongs. if you're facing these tier 9/10 tanks with 200mm of armor you should be far far away, otherwise your dead 88 or not. even if the l56 really is better you should just mount it on the DB, which is a better chassis than panther. less crits, more agility, better armor.

ApathyCurve #26 Posted Feb 29 2012 - 20:16

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 11591 battles
  • 794
  • [MG] MG
  • Member since:
    03-13-2011
Math aside, I believe it all comes down to play style.  I tried the Joker gun on the Panther and hated it, because I use the tank mainly as a flanker.  If I want to snipe, I play my TDs.  The short 88 is the gun that fits my style for this tank, and therefore the one with which I have the most success.

My advice is to forego the spreadsheets and simply play both guns for a while.  Then use the one you LIKE, whether it has better numbers or not.  

Game, not work.

Tupinambis #27 Posted Mar 01 2012 - 06:43

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 25656 battles
  • 11,222
  • [CMFRT] CMFRT
  • Member since:
    12-22-2010
Just throwing this out there, the Pershing is even harder to pen with the 88mm than the Jumbo is [unless the Jumbo has the stock turret mounted].

The T29 is borderline impossible to pen through the front with that gun too.

genzou #28 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 08:08

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 8778 battles
  • 206
  • [ANZIO] ANZIO
  • Member since:
    03-25-2011
this purely on numbers only. The numbers may say so 88/L56 is not as good as it is shown in stats. I definitely can say the 75/L100 can penetrate more reliably than the 88/L56 ever could. Effective range and accuracy of the L100 also trumps the 88. Not to mention the gun disperses less than the 88 when turning, moving and trying to hit mobile targets. Higher ROF also means the L100 is more forgiving when you make a bounce or miss since you only lose 135 of potential damage compared to 220 before the next shot is ready.

Additionally the panther is not meant to fight close ranged or brawl unless in emergencies. That there are statements that the panther needs more acceleration or speed in itself shows it's not cut out to brawl. It is not as manueverable as it's counterparts so acceleration alone wouldn't help it much in close encounters.

Tupinambis #29 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 15:41

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 25656 battles
  • 11,222
  • [CMFRT] CMFRT
  • Member since:
    12-22-2010
I really don't understand why I've been seeing so many Panthers lately using the 88. Its really just a gimped VK at that point.

punchbugy1234 #30 Posted Mar 05 2012 - 06:47

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 10196 battles
  • 32
  • [TRW] TRW
  • Member since:
    01-27-2011
I think what you mount depends on if you came from the russian mess or heavys because the 88mm is a lot like the 100mm so you might like it more also you do not have to spend more exp on the gun

Patton5150 #31 Posted Mar 05 2012 - 09:20

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 19670 battles
  • 939
  • Member since:
    06-20-2011

View PostEffreem, on Feb 02 2012 - 20:43, said:


EDIT: Doesnt the 75L100 have a 12rps ROF? That would put it around 5sec reload while the 88 with an 8-10rps ROF would be every 6-7 seconds. I think the 75 also aims faster.

My Panther with the 75 L/100 shows ROF of 14.29

Orinana #32 Posted Mar 05 2012 - 18:38

    Captain

  • Players
  • 22430 battles
  • 1,446
  • Member since:
    08-11-2011

View PostTupinambis, on Mar 02 2012 - 15:41, said:

I really don't understand why I've been seeing so many Panthers lately using the 88. Its really just a gimped VK at that point.

HI

I might be able to give you a few reasons as to why this is happening

1: The 75mm/L100 requires really good team work for it to be effective at range. In Pub matches thats a rarity so what counts in Pub matches is sheer killing power..the more tanks you can kill the more likely your team gonna win

2: The HE round on the 75mm/L100 is a joke. The HE round on 88mm/L56 is very useful and can give most tanks a headache. I got into a firefight with a KV-5 on the Swamp map and the AP rounds couldnt pen frontally (by the way 75mm/L100 rounds cant pen KV-5 frontally either) and I couldnt flank however the HE rounds caused about 3-5 critical hits. After I used up all my HE and AP rounds all I had left was my 5 reserve gold rounds and these punch through the KV-5 like butter

3: You carry less ammo hence your less likley to get ammo racked. So instead you have a rammer, vent and optics or binocs

4: Its a myth that the 88mm/L56 is not a good sniping gun. The 75mm/L100 is a point and shoot gun however the 88mm/L56 needs more work at range but it works just fine

5: The 75mm/L100 main disavantage is killing power. 6 shots to kill a Sherman with 75mm/L100 versus 3 shots to kill it with a 88/L56 is completely unacceptable. The tactical advantage for the Panther with the 88mm/L56 is you get the job done quicker and you take far less damage cause your exposed less whether your sniping or brawling. This is really important in the battles where your Panther is in the Top 3. These battles I rarely lose now cause I can kill off the lower tier tanks really fast.  

6: By being able to kill the weaker tanks faster you have more time to plan and kill the heavier tanks

7: The Panther is not gimped with the 88mm/L56. Yes the DB is better flanker but the Panther is not far behind..were talking about a small diffence and for slightly less agility and speed the Panther gets more armor then a DB. Anytime I face a DB with my 88mm/L56 its lunch on a table..its a fight the DB cannot win at range or brawling

8: I got tired of being a support tank that only dishes out damage. Since I started using the 88mm/L56 I have collected a total of 3 top guns and 1 Reaper and 1 Confederate medal in the past 3 weeks with the tank and I average 1-2 kills per game whether Im in a tier 7 or a tier 9-10 fight

9: In a tier 9-10 fight it doesnt matter if you use the 75mm/L100 or 88mm/L56 neither gun can pen Tier 9-10 Hvy tanks frontally so you have to flank and in this case the 88mm/L56 has the advantage because it can dish out more damage

These 9 reasons or a combination of are probably y u see more Panthers with the 88mm/L56. For me the 88mm/L56 works for my playstyle and I feel it has really helped me get the positive win rate on my Panther 1

rene

Rypper #33 Posted Mar 06 2012 - 09:54

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 20929 battles
  • 3,107
  • [IOC] IOC
  • Member since:
    01-15-2011
And you seriously believe all this stuff?  :P

Orinana #34 Posted Mar 06 2012 - 19:02

    Captain

  • Players
  • 22430 battles
  • 1,446
  • Member since:
    08-11-2011

View PostRypper, on Mar 06 2012 - 09:54, said:

And you seriously believe all this stuff?  :P

Hi Ryyper

Always a pleasure to chat with you on the forum  :lol:

Look I dont disagree with you on the 75mm/L100 being a better gun but its a matter of play style

However in fair consideration maybe I should point this out..I have 2100+ games in the Panther 1 so Im not some newbie on it....I know the tank inside and out what it can and cant do but u need to log lot of time in it

So all NEW Panther 1 drivers Rypper is correct..You should use the 75mm/L100 until you get more experience with the tank..once you have a better comfort level with the tank then decide which gun you want to use

I have plenty of games with both 75mm/L100 and 88mm/L56 where I have 4-5 kills and if I had to make a bet I guess its about a even split. No to mention all 3 top guns, more then half my Confederate and Reaper Medals are with the 88mm/L56

For example yesterday I nailed a T59 at about 150m in the flank on Ruinberg with the 88mm and it dropped a full 17%!!..with a 75mm that would be a 9&-12% drop..that extra 5%-7% helped me and our tanks nail the damn thing..

I have absolutely no problem going into a Tier 9-10 fight with the 88mm/L56..if a DB can do it so can a Panther 1 and Panther 1 has more armor to boot. A Panther 1 is more agile then most Tier 9-10 hvys but is NOT more agile then a DB..that doesnt mean the tank cant do it..its just harder..the only other tanks in Tier 9-10 Hvys that are more agile are theFrench tanks and the IS 7 which seems really fast.

I was just pointing out some of the reasons why there is a fair number of Panther 1s running around with the 88mm/L56

I am not trying to tell people they must use the 88mm..all I am doing is pointing out that there is another option...and if you can make the necessary adjustments to your play theres no reason for you not to be successful

rene

mizaralcor #35 Posted Mar 06 2012 - 20:07

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 7769 battles
  • 712
  • Member since:
    10-10-2011

View PostOrinana, on Mar 05 2012 - 18:38, said:

7: The Panther is not gimped with the 88mm/L56. Yes the DB is better flanker but the Panther is not far behind..were talking about a small diffence and for slightly less agility and speed the Panther gets more armor then a DB. Anytime I face a DB with my 88mm/L56 its lunch on a table..its a fight the DB cannot win at range or brawling

The difference between the two is actually not small. The VK3002DB actually has significantly better acceleration and hp/t than a Panther. The difference between the two is quite bigger than the difference between a Panther and an IS for example. Not to mention, VK3002DB also has an advantage in another important quality for a tank's mobility, traverse, which is 12 deg/sec higher than a Panther (16 deg/sec higher total if counting turret traverse). The VK3002DB also has higher speed than Panther, but that's minor compared to the bigger difference in acceleration and traverse outlined previously.

Panther also does not actually get more armor than VK3002DB. Yes, the stat shows that Panther gets very slightly thicker armor than VK3002DB, but because VK3002DB has much better sloping on its armor on all sides than Panther, VK3002DB actually has MORE effective armor thickness than Panther. The only survivability stat that Panther has it better over VK3002DB is a measly 50 HP advantage, while being outclassed in effective armor thickness.

As for the gun, when both are using the short 88, admittedly Panther actually has slightly better RoF, something like 0.17 shells/min better RoF, but that only means Panther gets to fire 1 more shell over VK3002DB every 6 mins, meaning rarely more than one more per game.

As such, the only advantage a Panther has over VK3002DB is the fact that it has the option of using the 75L/100 gun, and also the fact that it is not placed in a dead-end branch. There is a reason, for example, for the devs to not give the 75L/100 gun option to VK3002DB. Because if that's the case, VK3002DB would be better than Panther in all aspects, be it short-medium range engagement or in super-long range sniping role with 75L/100.


The reason for many Panther drivers using short 88 over the 75L/100 is simple, they are either still grinding the exp required to unlock the 75L/100, or they just want to rush through to unlock Panther 2 and not wanting to take the 16k+ exp detour to unlock the 75L/100. Many of them also don't realize however, that you won't be able to use the short 88 in Panther 2 stock turret anymore, and would have to be stuck with the Pz4's 75L/70 in the stock turret if you don't unlock the 75L/100 previously.

Orinana #36 Posted Mar 06 2012 - 20:34

    Captain

  • Players
  • 22430 battles
  • 1,446
  • Member since:
    08-11-2011

View Postmizaralcor, on Mar 06 2012 - 20:07, said:

The difference between the two is actually not small. The VK3002DB actually has significantly better acceleration and hp/t than a Panther. The difference between the two is quite bigger than the difference between a Panther and an IS for example. Not to mention, VK3002DB also has an advantage in another important quality for a tank's mobility, traverse, which is 12 deg/sec higher than a Panther (16 deg/sec higher total if counting turret traverse). The VK3002DB also has higher speed than Panther, but that's minor compared to the bigger difference in acceleration and traverse outlined previously.

Panther also does not actually get more armor than VK3002DB. Yes, the stat shows that Panther gets very slightly thicker armor than VK3002DB, but because VK3002DB has much better sloping on its armor on all sides than Panther, VK3002DB actually has MORE effective armor thickness than Panther. The only survivability stat that Panther has it better over VK3002DB is a measly 50 HP advantage, while being outclassed in effective armor thickness.

As for the gun, when both are using the short 88, admittedly Panther actually has slightly better RoF, something like 0.17 shells/min better RoF, but that only means Panther gets to fire 1 more shell over VK3002DB every 6 mins, meaning rarely more than one more per game.

As such, the only advantage a Panther has over VK3002DB is the fact that it has the option of using the 75L/100 gun, and also the fact that it is not placed in a dead-end branch. There is a reason, for example, for the devs to not give the 75L/100 gun option to VK3002DB. Because if that's the case, VK3002DB would be better than Panther in all aspects, be it short-medium range engagement or in super-long range sniping role with 75L/100.


The reason for many Panther drivers using short 88 over the 75L/100 is simple, they are either still grinding the exp required to unlock the 75L/100, or they just want to rush through to unlock Panther 2 and not wanting to take the 16k+ exp detour to unlock the 75L/100. Many of them also don't realize however, that you won't be able to use the short 88 in Panther 2 stock turret anymore, and would have to be stuck with the Pz4's 75L/70 in the stock turret if you don't unlock the 75L/100 previously.


you are completely correct and I fully agree with you :Smile_great:
I never said the Panther was a better flanker then DB..it isnt..but it can flank it just needs more work  B)

and that 50HP maybe a small difference but that 50 extra HP makes the difference between being dead or not :D

and as I have pointed out..im just reflecting my opinion on why the 88mm/L56 works on the Panther 1 for me but I feel like people think Im giving false information. No such thing but I do have over 2100+ games in it and a positive win rate so I maybe I did not make clear enough that for new Panther 1 drivers you should go with the 75mm/L100..I know I did

but then again Im a weird player ;) ..I have 50% win rate in the JgPzIV the worst TD in the whole game with the 88mm/L56 as well :P and a 50% win rate in the VK3001 H with the 88mm/L56 as well

coincidence..NOT!!! :Smile_harp:

rene

939900Andrew #37 Posted Mar 21 2012 - 23:20

    Private

  • Players
  • 1 battle
  • 1
  • Member since:
    03-09-2012

View PostOrinana, on Mar 05 2012 - 18:38, said:

HI

I might be able to give you a few reasons as to why this is happening

1: The 75mm/L100 requires really good team work for it to be effective at range. In Pub matches thats a rarity so what counts in Pub matches is sheer killing power..the more tanks you can kill the more likely your team gonna win Yes, True

2: The HE round on the 75mm/L100 is a joke. The HE round on 88mm/L56 is very useful and can give most tanks a headache. I got into a firefight with a KV-5 on the Swamp map and the AP rounds couldnt pen frontally (by the way 75mm/L100 rounds cant pen KV-5 frontally either) and I couldnt flank however the HE rounds caused about 3-5 critical hits. After I used up all my HE and AP rounds all I had left was my 5 reserve gold rounds and these punch through the KV-5 like butter No....try shooting that machine gun turret in the front hull.

3: You carry less ammo hence your less likley to get ammo racked. So instead you have a rammer, vent and optics or binocs Wrong...one of the You Ask, We Replys said that ammo racking happens, nomatter what type of ammo and how much ammo you have, unless you have no ammo at all.

4: Its a myth that the 88mm/L56 is not a good sniping gun. The 75mm/L100 is a point and shoot gun however the 88mm/L56 needs more work at range but it works just fine True.

5: The 75mm/L100 main disavantage is killing power. 6 shots to kill a Sherman with 75mm/L100 versus 3 shots to kill it with a 88/L56 is completely unacceptable. The tactical advantage for the Panther with the 88mm/L56 is you get the job done quicker and you take far less damage cause your exposed less whether your sniping or brawling. This is really important in the battles where your Panther is in the Top 3. These battles I rarely lose now cause I can kill off the lower tier tanks really fast.  True...but you are a priority target for artillery when you are top tier, and the weak armor on the panther's turret's roof does not help you. S-51s can knock out Tigers in one shot because of the weak turret roof armor, the same can and will happen to your Panther.

6: By being able to kill the weaker tanks faster you have more time to plan and kill the heavier tanks True

7: The Panther is not gimped with the 88mm/L56. Yes the DB is better flanker but the Panther is not far behind..were talking about a small diffence and for slightly less agility and speed the Panther gets more armor then a DB. Anytime I face a DB with my 88mm/L56 its lunch on a table..its a fight the DB cannot win at range or brawling A good DB will shoot off one of your tracks and circle you.

8: I got tired of being a support tank that only dishes out damage. Since I started using the 88mm/L56 I have collected a total of 3 top guns and 1 Reaper and 1 Confederate medal in the past 3 weeks with the tank and I average 1-2 kills per game whether Im in a tier 7 or a tier 9-10 fight Nice...Wait...A Panther with the l/70 can brawl too... You are as heavy as a heavy tank, better armored than a certain heavy, and have the hp of a heavy tank. It is just not recommended to brawl, as your turret traverse rate is slow, and a smart enemy will track you.

9: In a tier 9-10 fight it doesnt matter if you use the 75mm/L100 or 88mm/L56 neither gun can pen Tier 9-10 Hvy tanks frontally so you have to flank and in this case the 88mm/L56 has the advantage because it can dish out more damage True...but you can shoot off their tracks for your team's artillery, and you want the more accurate gun for that.

These 9 reasons or a combination of are probably y u see more Panthers with the 88mm/L56. For me the 88mm/L56 works for my playstyle and I feel it has really helped me get the positive win rate on my Panther 1

rene
Yes, I have no battles here, but I have enough battles in my EU account to know what I'm talking about.

BasilBrush #38 Posted Mar 22 2012 - 05:53

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 16066 battles
  • 426
  • Member since:
    08-06-2011
I really am amazed you came up with the conclusions but seeing as how your assumptions are wrong I guess I should not be. Comparing the guns performance against turret armour is pointless when most people shoot at the hull.

Against a T29/T32/T34/T30 the 75L100 will pen the front of the hull almost 100% at all ranges. The 88L56 can pen if you hit the MG mount which means you have to be real close to do so reliably and at range it is pointless to try to pen the front hull.

Two of the most popular T8 heavies in the game are the King Tiger & IS-3. The 75L100 can pen the lower glacis of both tanks with ease and can pen the turret of the KT some of the time and reliably pen the upper hull of the IS-3 if it is not facing straight on. 88L56 has absolutley zero chance in any of those cases.

Ever tried to kill an E75 with the 88L56? I flanked one in my VK3002DB on Ruinberg and then bounced 10 of 10 rounds (quite possibly more) off its hull. Its rear has the same armour as its sides so I was useless against it (it was defending it's cap so tracking was pointless - it needed to die). With the 75L100 I have killed and badly wounded numerous E75's at both long and short range.

Sure I can't pen an E75 from the front other than a rare lucky pen into its front glacis IF it is pointing straight at me. I can however pen it consistently as soon as it turns its turret away from or shows me the side of his hull. I don't need to flank the E75, I wait for it to engage one of my team's heavies and position myself to take advantage when it does - doing so safely at range.

Then of course there are the benefits of greater accuracy. I can use the 75L100 to put rounds into the turrets of anything T7 and below (excl US T29) even at very long range. This increases the chances of killing their gunner/loader or damaging their gun all of which helps my team.

The 88 should never be on the Panther given a choice it is a poor gun in comparison on any metric bar damage - which is useless in any case as you will in no way pen enough to make use of it.

For the record I have a 56% or 58% WR on my Panther with the 75L100. It is easily the best long range support tank of the game - use it as such.

BasilBrush #39 Posted Mar 22 2012 - 05:58

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 16066 battles
  • 426
  • Member since:
    08-06-2011

View PostOrinana, on Mar 06 2012 - 20:34, said:



but then again Im a weird player ;) ..I have 50% win rate in the JgPzIV the worst TD in the whole game with the 88mm/L56 as well :P and a 50% win rate in the VK3001 H with the 88mm/L56 as well

coincidence..NOT!!! :Smile_harp:

rene

I have greater win rates in all three of those vehicles which proves precisely nothing. The 88L56 at T6 is acceptable, lacking a bit in pen but workable at least. At T7 the gun is a joke.

Baby_Burrito #40 Posted Mar 22 2012 - 18:09

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 4654 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    04-14-2011
:D