It's slower than the ARL
It's enormous compared to the ARL and most other t7 heavies
It has less armor than the ARL???
It has equal or worse depression than even the AMX 12t
All you get is enough HP to take one or two more hits. This tank really needs some love.
Why is the AMX M4 so terrible?
Started by
clench
, Feb 04 2012 - 10:07
111 replies to this topic
#-18 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 10:10
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Honestly? Because it's basically a Tiger with a worse aim time but higher top speed from what I can see, with similar handling characteristics from the time I used it on the test server (I free xp'd past it in live).
The Tiger is universally renowned as one of the worst tanks in the game to use, and the AMX M4 seems to be right up its ally of awkwardness.
The Tiger is universally renowned as one of the worst tanks in the game to use, and the AMX M4 seems to be right up its ally of awkwardness.
#-17 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 10:15
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Tiger has a decent front plate at least and normal turret depression so it can function as a decent sniper in the right hands.
The depression on the AMX M4 is just plain awful.
The depression on the AMX M4 is just plain awful.
#-16 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 10:23
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The front plate of the M4 is actually stronger than the Tiger's, though, simply because it's angled. The Tiger has worse front armor than the AMX M4. To what degree, I honestly cannot say, however, as I don't know the exact angle. Should be around the 120 range though.
#-15 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 10:29
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its effective front plate is something around 110-120 like onyx is saying but the best way I found to use mine, before I found is hot younger sister the AMX 50 100, was to find something to hide behind like a KT or Lowe and then sit 200m behind it sniping at what it spotted. The biggest complaint I had was with the gun and its 2.5 second aim time. Yes its only a half second longer than most other tier 8 guns but with its armor being what it is, you're almost guaranteed to take a shot to the chin before you let one loose yourself.
#-14 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 10:36
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Yeah, you would think that by looking at it, but it doesn't measure up quite that well in actual play.
First of all it's long, so when you're peekabooing you always expose part of your side or worse, the roof.
The tiger, while it has a flat front plate, it still seems very good at bouncing shots anyway. It can bounce any 90mm gun the french have 50% or more of the time. Even the best one. I have an easier time penetrating the front armor of an IS-3 usually.
In practice, the ARL's front armor is much more effective because the design of the tank forces the enemy to shoot it. The long design of the M4 allows for a skilled opponent to take shots at places other than the front plate.
The poor turret depression forces you to constantly expose yourself to make shots that other heavies wouldn't have to. Hill fighting is basically impossible. Your only option is sniping over flat terrain, which isn't viable on most maps.
First of all it's long, so when you're peekabooing you always expose part of your side or worse, the roof.
The tiger, while it has a flat front plate, it still seems very good at bouncing shots anyway. It can bounce any 90mm gun the french have 50% or more of the time. Even the best one. I have an easier time penetrating the front armor of an IS-3 usually.
In practice, the ARL's front armor is much more effective because the design of the tank forces the enemy to shoot it. The long design of the M4 allows for a skilled opponent to take shots at places other than the front plate.
The poor turret depression forces you to constantly expose yourself to make shots that other heavies wouldn't have to. Hill fighting is basically impossible. Your only option is sniping over flat terrain, which isn't viable on most maps.
#-13 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 11:03
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If you expose your side while playing peekaboo around the corner, you're doing quite a few things wrong. First of all, you're not attacking the corner properly to present your front, not the side. Second, you don't have a tank that's good at peekaboo to begin with and you shouldn't attempt it unless you're fighting guns with 130 or worse pen.
And really, the ARL has significantly better front armor by listed value ( don't know actual values in game yet, take this as you will), which would make it a lot stronger than the AMX M4, especially if it's thrown into a tier 6 battle. I'd be surprised if it didn't have better armor than the T29, one of the best armored tanks in tier 7 (second only to the tiger P in hull armor)
Really, from the sounds of it, it sounds like you're trying to play the M4 like the ARL, which has strong armor, when you should be playing it like the tiger, which really doesn't. Don't play to your tank's weaknesses or the enemy's strengths. Play to your tank's strengths, regardless of how bad that is. And if that means you're babysitting the artillery, then babysit the artillery. Just not immediately where the artillery is. Don't hill fight, either. None of the French tanks have good gun depression.
The Tiger has weaker armor than the AMX M4, this I can guarantee. The M4 is just as bouncy as the Tiger, if not more so due to the angling on the front armor. Just play it like a tiger and, if you do have to round corners, stop exposing your side armor in the process.
And really, the ARL has significantly better front armor by listed value ( don't know actual values in game yet, take this as you will), which would make it a lot stronger than the AMX M4, especially if it's thrown into a tier 6 battle. I'd be surprised if it didn't have better armor than the T29, one of the best armored tanks in tier 7 (second only to the tiger P in hull armor)
Really, from the sounds of it, it sounds like you're trying to play the M4 like the ARL, which has strong armor, when you should be playing it like the tiger, which really doesn't. Don't play to your tank's weaknesses or the enemy's strengths. Play to your tank's strengths, regardless of how bad that is. And if that means you're babysitting the artillery, then babysit the artillery. Just not immediately where the artillery is. Don't hill fight, either. None of the French tanks have good gun depression.
The Tiger has weaker armor than the AMX M4, this I can guarantee. The M4 is just as bouncy as the Tiger, if not more so due to the angling on the front armor. Just play it like a tiger and, if you do have to round corners, stop exposing your side armor in the process.
#-12 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 11:13
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The thing is so goddamn long if you're not directly facing your enemy you expose your sides. There is nothing you can do about it except hide in the back.
Not all the french tanks have terrible turret depression. Only the french tanks with autoloaders have terrible depression, which I can live with. In fact, the ARL has some of the best depression in the game and is quite excellent at hill fighting.
But the AMX M4 DOES NOT have an autoloader and the depression is as bad or worse than the worst turret depression of any of the french tanks.
I really don't understand why the AMX M4 is worse than the ARL. They need to trade places and beef up the ARL's HP or give the AMX M4 an autoloader or something. It's just plain not fun going from the ARL to the AMX M4. And this is based off my experience in t6-10 battles, not just t6. ARL just seems to perform better no matter the situation, it has the same gun, a better design and more speed.
Not all the french tanks have terrible turret depression. Only the french tanks with autoloaders have terrible depression, which I can live with. In fact, the ARL has some of the best depression in the game and is quite excellent at hill fighting.
But the AMX M4 DOES NOT have an autoloader and the depression is as bad or worse than the worst turret depression of any of the french tanks.
I really don't understand why the AMX M4 is worse than the ARL. They need to trade places and beef up the ARL's HP or give the AMX M4 an autoloader or something. It's just plain not fun going from the ARL to the AMX M4. And this is based off my experience in t6-10 battles, not just t6. ARL just seems to perform better no matter the situation, it has the same gun, a better design and more speed.
#-11 Posted Feb 04 2012 - 22:41
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The M4 is identical to a Tiger, then made worse. But wait, its gun has 9mm of extra penetration, it goes a whopping 4km/h faster, and has slightly higher turret traverse! These things do not make it balanced or even comparable to a Tiger.
The armor is not better, I get more bounces in my Tiger than my M4 by far. Angling the M4 is pointless, any angle you give the enemy presents your pathetic side armor for them to exploit(not angling it enough to give them a side shot isn't enough, but this is self-defeating), unless you're at a building corner(in which case you've got to be practically horizontal to get any results). Overlord or some other dev stated before that the Tiger's armor has a special value attached to it that's higher than other tanks, giving it more artificial thickness and a higher tendency to bounce shells when angled. The Tiger(and other German tanks) also has that flat section half-way down the front, that is a MAJOR bounce zone.
The M4 is easily crippled by any penetrating hits, as many of them take out the turret ring, and ammo rack. Your driver's pretty much guaranteed to die every game. The depression is probably the worst in the entire game. One pebble under your track and you're thrown off target because your gun won't go down another 1/16th of a rat hair. Hill fighting/hull down is more or less impossible.
The gun's statistics might as well be fake, for a 0.32acc gun this thing misses at least 4/10 shots at the distances it's made to engage at. 212 penetration regularly bounces on KVs for some inexplicable reason. Aim time isn't really a bother, I use a gun laying drive on both tanks. The DCA45 is absolutely amazing at tier 6 with the ARL, despite the slower aim time, lower accuracy, and fire rate. Not so much at tier 7 and up, you can achieve pretty much identical results with the 88 L/71, 9mm of penetration is negligible.
This tank wants to be a Tiger, but it can't. I've got like 5200xp to go until I've got the AMX50-100 researched. I'm selling this thing and never looking back.
The armor is not better, I get more bounces in my Tiger than my M4 by far. Angling the M4 is pointless, any angle you give the enemy presents your pathetic side armor for them to exploit(not angling it enough to give them a side shot isn't enough, but this is self-defeating), unless you're at a building corner(in which case you've got to be practically horizontal to get any results). Overlord or some other dev stated before that the Tiger's armor has a special value attached to it that's higher than other tanks, giving it more artificial thickness and a higher tendency to bounce shells when angled. The Tiger(and other German tanks) also has that flat section half-way down the front, that is a MAJOR bounce zone.
The M4 is easily crippled by any penetrating hits, as many of them take out the turret ring, and ammo rack. Your driver's pretty much guaranteed to die every game. The depression is probably the worst in the entire game. One pebble under your track and you're thrown off target because your gun won't go down another 1/16th of a rat hair. Hill fighting/hull down is more or less impossible.
The gun's statistics might as well be fake, for a 0.32acc gun this thing misses at least 4/10 shots at the distances it's made to engage at. 212 penetration regularly bounces on KVs for some inexplicable reason. Aim time isn't really a bother, I use a gun laying drive on both tanks. The DCA45 is absolutely amazing at tier 6 with the ARL, despite the slower aim time, lower accuracy, and fire rate. Not so much at tier 7 and up, you can achieve pretty much identical results with the 88 L/71, 9mm of penetration is negligible.
This tank wants to be a Tiger, but it can't. I've got like 5200xp to go until I've got the AMX50-100 researched. I'm selling this thing and never looking back.
#-10 Posted Feb 05 2012 - 01:45
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EXACTLY.
The Tiger bounces my 212 pen 90mm almost 100% of the time with it's "inferior flat armor". Tiger armor is clearly beefed because of the historical significance of the tank and probably because the devs knew all the WW2 fanbois would be clamoring over it. Not to mention it has more HP.
Meanwhile I've had my front plate penetrated repeatedly by t5 tanks in the M4... It's the size of a freaking maus and no armor to keep it up. It's a huge arty target because you need to stay perfectly still and level to make any shots. There are so many lower tiered tanks that are better than the M4 I don't understand how it's a t7 heavy tank.
I'd be perfectly alright with how the tank performs if it had an autoloader, but it doesn't.
The Tiger bounces my 212 pen 90mm almost 100% of the time with it's "inferior flat armor". Tiger armor is clearly beefed because of the historical significance of the tank and probably because the devs knew all the WW2 fanbois would be clamoring over it. Not to mention it has more HP.
Meanwhile I've had my front plate penetrated repeatedly by t5 tanks in the M4... It's the size of a freaking maus and no armor to keep it up. It's a huge arty target because you need to stay perfectly still and level to make any shots. There are so many lower tiered tanks that are better than the M4 I don't understand how it's a t7 heavy tank.
I'd be perfectly alright with how the tank performs if it had an autoloader, but it doesn't.
#-9 Posted Feb 05 2012 - 05:04
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clench, on Feb 05 2012 - 01:45, said:
EXACTLY.
The Tiger bounces my 212 pen 90mm almost 100% of the time with it's "inferior flat armor". Tiger armor is clearly beefed because of the historical significance of the tank and probably because the devs knew all the WW2 fanbois would be clamoring over it. Not to mention it has more HP.
Meanwhile I've had my front plate penetrated repeatedly by t5 tanks in the M4... It's the size of a freaking maus and no armor to keep it up. It's a huge arty target because you need to stay perfectly still and level to make any shots. There are so many lower tiered tanks that are better than the M4 I don't understand how it's a t7 heavy tank.
I'd be perfectly alright with how the tank performs if it had an autoloader, but it doesn't.
The Tiger bounces my 212 pen 90mm almost 100% of the time with it's "inferior flat armor". Tiger armor is clearly beefed because of the historical significance of the tank and probably because the devs knew all the WW2 fanbois would be clamoring over it. Not to mention it has more HP.
Meanwhile I've had my front plate penetrated repeatedly by t5 tanks in the M4... It's the size of a freaking maus and no armor to keep it up. It's a huge arty target because you need to stay perfectly still and level to make any shots. There are so many lower tiered tanks that are better than the M4 I don't understand how it's a t7 heavy tank.
I'd be perfectly alright with how the tank performs if it had an autoloader, but it doesn't.
And my AMX 50 100 turret has bounced 225+ pen guns quite commonly despite the terrible armor it has.
Bad armor doesn't mean it's incapable of bouncing shots, and the Tiger has an entire section of armor that can ricochet shells very easily because it's not flat, at all. and is closer to a 70 degree angle, if not higher. I don't find them any easier or harder than any other tank to land shots on as low as 160 pen reliably, as long as I don't hit the mantlet and the few other quagmire shots that the Tiger can take.
It's the same problem the KV and KV-3 has versus high pen guns. It has very low armor against 200+ pen guns, but the turret and part of the front hull have silly angles on them that bounce shots for no reason anyways.
#-8 Posted Feb 06 2012 - 07:37
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I personally have found that the AMX M4 isn't the greatest T7 and isn't the worst T7, in it I could take on IS's and Tigers without problem but once the T29 or Tiger P was encountered I ran lol. It really seems to be in that middle ground where it can be a really effective sniper but is also fast enough to flank tanks with some degree of speed. I wouldn't trade my T29 in for it, but it was fun to play once fully upgraded.
#-7 Posted Feb 14 2012 - 05:43
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buff the M4 by adding 100mm gun on it.
Heavies should unlock better guns first, then the next tier med follows up.
But the 100mm unlocks at tier 8 for both AMX50 and L40t, which is kinda unfair for AMX 50 player, super unfair for M4 player...
Heavies should unlock better guns first, then the next tier med follows up.
But the 100mm unlocks at tier 8 for both AMX50 and L40t, which is kinda unfair for AMX 50 player, super unfair for M4 player...
#-6 Posted Feb 15 2012 - 03:25
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My choices with this tank are either play it like a giant oversized TD with "shoot me" painted across the top for any arty to see or trail along behind other heavies to support until I'm killed in three shots from the front heh. The only thing I don't have on this tank at the moment is the top engine, but I doubt I'm going to waste my time getting it so I can just move on to the next frenchie and sell this thing. That's saying a lot considering I've saved my ARL and BDR. While they both were painful at times I still had a lot of fun with them unlike the M4.
I've read the complaining about the ARL, but seriously anyone playing one should just enjoy it while it lasts. I'm approaching 100 matches in this tank and I loathe it. It makes me wish I was playing my ARL.
I've read the complaining about the ARL, but seriously anyone playing one should just enjoy it while it lasts. I'm approaching 100 matches in this tank and I loathe it. It makes me wish I was playing my ARL.
#-5 Posted Feb 15 2012 - 06:59
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I must be a minority. So far I've enjoyed the B1, and the ARL-44 has earned a special place in my heart for being a fun tank. Only French tanks I've truly disliked have been the rubber ducky (only because of MM) and the Tier 5 heavy (it's name shall not be spoken!).
Compared to the ARL, the AMX M4 is basically a gun upgrade, and possessing better turret placement, more hitpoints, and better track designs, The improved reload speeds and aim times help a lot, so I actually do like the AMX M4, but possibly only because I loved the ARL. I'd compare the transition to that of going from the T29 to the T32...the latter was essentially a slightly better version of the former, and it worked out well.
And The reason it's so similar to th tiger is because it IS essentially a Tiger tank. The turret is a little different shaped, but the hatches are the same. They're about the same size, they both use Maybach engines, their rear ends are the same....It even uses a Tiger suspension.
Compared to the ARL, the AMX M4 is basically a gun upgrade, and possessing better turret placement, more hitpoints, and better track designs, The improved reload speeds and aim times help a lot, so I actually do like the AMX M4, but possibly only because I loved the ARL. I'd compare the transition to that of going from the T29 to the T32...the latter was essentially a slightly better version of the former, and it worked out well.
And The reason it's so similar to th tiger is because it IS essentially a Tiger tank. The turret is a little different shaped, but the hatches are the same. They're about the same size, they both use Maybach engines, their rear ends are the same....It even uses a Tiger suspension.
#-4 Posted Feb 15 2012 - 18:48
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I started with a positive attitude toward this tank and I think I have played enough rounds with it to say this is a poor heavy tank. I was of the opinion to try to fill several roles with it to see where it excelled. Sadly it excels no where. The problem is, if you play all pugs like me, you don't know what role you are going to be in. Example: Several matches you could be the top tank. Meaning that your role is you need to be the tip of the spear to help your team win. I am not saying play like a brawler and immediately get yourself killed but I am saying you need to be a lot more aggressive than if you are in the middle of the list of tanks (at start). I have tried brawling, tried sniping and yes I tried supporting the main heavy. This tank seems either in need of some love or something ( I honestly don't know what else to say).
I really did try and see the good points to this tank, but I would prefer a Tiger over this tank any day. I will still continue to grind to get my French heavies but I am seriously thinking about using a little free exp and jumping over this tank.
I really did try and see the good points to this tank, but I would prefer a Tiger over this tank any day. I will still continue to grind to get my French heavies but I am seriously thinking about using a little free exp and jumping over this tank.
#-3 Posted Feb 18 2012 - 04:58
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It appears to have been inadvertently over-nerfed as part of the balance pass on the Lorraine and ARL.
They increased the dispersion and lowered the pen on the top 90mm shared between these 3 in an attempt to keep it from being too OP.
The changes were mitigated on the other two because the Lorraine is crazygofast with an autoloader and the ARL is tier 6.
The AMX M4 on the other hand took it in the teeth and ended up being relatively weak for a tier 7 as a result.
They increased the dispersion and lowered the pen on the top 90mm shared between these 3 in an attempt to keep it from being too OP.
The changes were mitigated on the other two because the Lorraine is crazygofast with an autoloader and the ARL is tier 6.
The AMX M4 on the other hand took it in the teeth and ended up being relatively weak for a tier 7 as a result.
#-2 Posted Feb 18 2012 - 14:08
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Tiger is not crap, all you need is a good gun, you dont need armor or amazing speed.
The 90mm on french tanks is superior to 88L71 because of the extra penetration, it allows you to punch above your tier easily, scoring big xp/creds. Play it like a tiger, don't rely on armor, go behind your team, snipe support.
The 90mm on french tanks is superior to 88L71 because of the extra penetration, it allows you to punch above your tier easily, scoring big xp/creds. Play it like a tiger, don't rely on armor, go behind your team, snipe support.
#-1 Posted Feb 18 2012 - 17:39
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I've played the Tiger. The Tiger is a great tank.
The AMX M4 is not a Tiger. It lacks almost every single thing that gives the Tiger an actual edge.
The AMX M4 is not a Tiger. It lacks almost every single thing that gives the Tiger an actual edge.
#0 Posted Feb 19 2012 - 22:48
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The M4's gun handling [dispersion, aim time, etc] and gun depression are what really lets it down. I'm primarily a medium player, so having no armor is something I'm used to. Terrible handling is not something I'm used to. Lower the dispersion and improve the gun depression and the M4 will be a fine machine.
