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Tiger II Hentschel turret's frontal armour


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Sander93 #1 Posted Sep 09 2010 - 21:49

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I have played over 300 battles with my dear King Tiger now, and I'm absolutely loving my kitteh. Yet there is this one thing bothering me. I always thought the Hentschel turret just had a low armour value and that that was the reason pretty much all frontal T4+ hits on it went through. But just now I realised it actually has a huge 180mm of armour, a value only T7's and higher should be able to penetrate. I know there's a -+30% penetration 'luck' factor involved, but frontal penetration happens way to often for that to be the cause.

Anyone else experiencing this? I think the KT armour values might be bugged, like accidentally using the Porsche Turret's values of 100mm frontal. With its 70 tonnes and slow top speed the frontal armor is pretty much the only thing that makes the KT really worthwhile in between all the (super-bouncing) Russian heavy tanks. Yet this turret frontal armour can be a real pain in the ass. Luckily not that many people seem to know of its weakness.

So what do you guys think? Is it something worth adressing to the devs? Or is it meant to be like this?

TisBACK #2 Posted Sep 09 2010 - 21:54

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View PostSander93, on Sep 09 2010 - 21:49, said:

I have played over 300 battles with my dear King Tiger now, and I'm absolutely loving my kitteh. Yet there is this one thing bothering me. I always thought the Hentschel turret just had a low armour value and that that was the reason pretty much all frontal T4+ hits on it went through. But just now I realised it actually has a huge 180mm of armour, a value only T7's and higher should be able to penetrate. I know there's a -+30% penetration 'luck' factor involved, but frontal penetration happens way to often for that to be the cause.

Anyone else experiencing this? I think the KT armour values might be bugged, like accidentally using the Porsche Turret's values of 100mm frontal. With its 70 tonnes and slow top speed the frontal armor is pretty much the only thing that makes the KT really worthwhile in between all the (super-bouncing) Russian heavy tanks. Yet this turret frontal armour can be a real pain in the ass. Luckily not that many people seem to know of its weakness.

So what do you guys think? Is it something worth adressing to the devs? Or is it meant to be like this?

Same for me, nearly every fight my gun is knocked out.

PzGrenKdr #3 Posted Sep 09 2010 - 23:29

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mhm i have no probs with Tiger II turret, but inded against a Tiger II i always aim the frontarmour of the turret because it´s only 80° sloped so no bounces. The hull armour is 150mm@ 35° which is ~233mm effective armour(+ more bouncer) so most ppl aim the turret.

3cxO #4 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 14:50

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I've recently acquired an IS-3 (already owned a KT) and what I've been noticing is with the KT, a Tiger 1 could pen my front/turret somewhat reliably. Even though I'd kill it, it could push 400/500 damage before I did so. With the IS-3, I've been able to ding consistenly on the turret

So instead of the high value, it might just be a slope thing. The KT's turret is not all that sloped at all. It's a perfect square where the gun holds with no tilt/slope.

Sander93 #5 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 14:58

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Yes yes I know, but whats buggering me is that even smaller T4-6 tanks seem to be able to very regularly penetrate the turret even though their pen values dont even come near the 180mm.
KVs and KV3s for instance, while only the KV3s 122mm comes close to 180mm penetration. I'm just wondering if this is meant to be or wether it may be a bug.
Considering frontal armor is all the KT really has to equal its somewhat lack in side and rear armor, and to be able to take on the Russian heavies, its a sensitive case.

PzGrenKdr #6 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 15:32

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you see the average penetration if you look at the techtree the spread is much wider.

idfor #7 Posted Sep 11 2010 - 09:26

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same as for me,too many shot penetrates the from turrent while IS's gets bounced more.

Sander93 #8 Posted Sep 11 2010 - 11:11

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I know but the ingame name for the turret is Hen[t]schel, so I will stick to that not to cause any confusion.

theta0123 #9 Posted Sep 11 2010 - 11:37

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View PostSander93, on Sep 11 2010 - 11:11, said:

I know but the ingame name for the turret is Hen[t]schel, so I will stick to that not to cause any confusion.
Wait so the correct turret for the KT is krupp right? The one used on all KT's?

Mrtheox #10 Posted Sep 15 2010 - 02:00

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View PostSander93, on Sep 09 2010 - 21:49, said:

I have played over 300 battles with my dear King Tiger now, and I'm absolutely loving my kitteh. Yet there is this one thing bothering me. I always thought the Hentschel turret just had a low armour value and that that was the reason pretty much all frontal T4+ hits on it went through. But just now I realised it actually has a huge 180mm of armour, a value only T7's and higher should be able to penetrate. I know there's a -+30% penetration 'luck' factor involved, but frontal penetration happens way to often for that to be the cause.

Anyone else experiencing this? I think the KT armour values might be bugged, like accidentally using the Porsche Turret's values of 100mm frontal. With its 70 tonnes and slow top speed the frontal armor is pretty much the only thing that makes the KT really worthwhile in between all the (super-bouncing) Russian heavy tanks. Yet this turret frontal armour can be a real pain in the ass. Luckily not that many people seem to know of its weakness.

So what do you guys think? Is it something worth adressing to the devs? Or is it meant to be like this?

Working as intended. KT has a weak spot right where the barrel goes into the turret.

View Postmerig00, on Jul 31 2010 - 01:19, said:

I'm inviting everyone to collect blueprints and schematics of in-game tanks. This is a work-in-progress topic so discussion and suggestions are welcomed. However don't be surprised if your comment gets deleted if I need to rearrange some things, and especially if it doesn't contain any directly useful information. If your image has notes in other language but english please try to leave at least a brief description of what exactly we are looking at.


I'll start with example given by devs of hit box detalization for KT:

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/4153/turretcollision.th.jpg Posted Image

Please don't ask for any other tank - this was one-in-the-lifetime generosity moment. :Smile-hiding:



lozarus #11 Posted Sep 15 2010 - 03:18

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Suprised at this, the Porche turret was supposed to have the synmtoms your describing because of the shot trap effect the inward sloping armour on the bottom had, whearas the flatter and backward sloped Hentchel turret was more made to stop stuff with sheer thickness of armour rather than bounce them.

Midnitewolf #12 Posted Sep 18 2010 - 03:59

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View PostSander93, on Sep 10 2010 - 14:58, said:

Yes yes I know, but whats buggering me is that even smaller T4-6 tanks seem to be able to very regularly penetrate the turret even though their pen values dont even come near the 180mm.
KVs and KV3s for instance, while only the KV3s 122mm comes close to 180mm penetration. I'm just wondering if this is meant to be or wether it may be a bug.
Considering frontal armor is all the KT really has to equal its somewhat lack in side and rear armor, and to be able to take on the Russian heavies, its a sensitive case.

I think this is where part of your problem lies.

The KV can mount a 107mm cannon with an average penetration of 167mm.  Using the +/- 30% rule the max penetration of this gun would be 217mm.  Using this calculation unless my math is wrong then 24% of all shots from this gun should penetrate 180mm of armor plate.

The KV-3 can mount the 107mm as well as both a 100mm and a 122mm gun both with penetration of 175mm or a max penetration of around 227mm.  In this case damn near 40% of all shots should penetrate.

The T-34/85 can mount the 100mm gun with above mentioned penetration statistics.

As you can see 24-40% penetration means your going to have fairly regular penetration from these much lower end tanks just as your experiencing.

This is part of the imbalance we see with Russian tanks.  Even Tier 5 Russian tanks can mount guns that can penetrate at least up to Tier 8 German armor fairly regularly.  On the German side you have to be using as a minimum the Long 8.8cm on either the Tiger or Panther to have the same ability to penetrated high level armor.

fuzzlecrank #13 Posted Sep 19 2010 - 01:29

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Does it matter how thick the front armor on turret its when your gun is knocked silly and damaged on usually first hit you take when using the 105mm??
Ive sold my TigerII cause problem is not that things penetrate, the problem is that your gun will break down 24/7 when using the 105mm and the 88mm is too weak to handle IS3/4/7 in a effective way. So either our stuck with a sub-performing gun that will not do any noticeable damage on the opponents or you have no gun at all at most times.
Ive play alot of platoons with two other TigerII and we all had same issue with 105mm, game after game after game so no one used it in the end.
105mm break down ratio is 20 times or maybe higher then the 88mm`s.. (both long and short version)
OK they ammo is expensive but i would not mind that extra cost over the 88mm if i could actually use the ammo and not spam repair kits to fix a gun that will get broken on next hit anyway.
Even hits that done 0 damage have damaged the 105mm on many occasions.
I dont know if the gun was exceptionally weak in WW2 or even how many King Tigers that was equipped with it but if we gonna take all such options into consideration ingame i suggest the early Russian tanks run around without radio and no aiming optics, instead they gonna practice the good ole "aim through barrel with open breach, load & fire"..
The King Tiger is so slow and clumsy that once your in, there is no other way out but forward.
If this tank is gonna be ingame in the future as a competitive tank for its tier and not just as a novelty tank, it at least need the ability to return fire, even if a Hetzer slammed a 0 damage round at you or artillery splashed some damage cause in its current state its fail for its tier without a functional 105mm gun.

I did notice taking alot less damage from frontal hits with the upgraded turret and also the additional 200 health is nice to carry around, i could not notice anything about the turret that made it bugged in any way considering armor penetration and the 105mm (both long and short) broke down contantly in both turrets ive switched them alot back n forth to test.

Sock #14 Posted Sep 25 2010 - 11:19

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Wow, and Im already having trouble with the 88mm breaking down about 20-30% of games... If it truely is that bad it needs some fixing, I was really hoping the 105mm would FINALLY enable me to put up a fight against IS and up tanks as with the 88mm it just isnt possible really. So much bounces it makes my head hurt and they always seem to penetrate my 150mm front armor no problem.

CommissionerJan #15 Posted Sep 26 2010 - 16:24

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The problem, I think, is this:

Most tanks can use guns that are vastly more powerful than the ones they had historically.

This leads to easy penetrations of armour that was relatively tough in real life.

SpectreHD #16 Posted Sep 26 2010 - 18:57

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So funny, a VK3001P hit the front of my turret and penetrated. It was using the 75mm L/71. Jesus Christ, every tank under the KT's tier always penetrate even on the hull. It seems none seem to ever richochet of the side of my turret even when they shoot from the front.

That and the 105mm ammo is too expensive for the damage it does. It should have been around the 800 range. It's damage is nothing special and because we need more shells to take out an IS3 than the IS3 against the Tiger, ammo cost is just way over. With the Ferdinand, it was fine because I had massive damage and require less shells but the KT is just not a tank you can make a good profit in.




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