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Ok, yes I know there are a lot of Type 59 threads. I know that most people that get out of rounds in which they have to fight against 5 type 59s say they are OP, and that every person who drives one says they aren't (yeah, not biased at all). While I do think they are overpowered, that's not the main focus of this thread. My question is how do you other medium tank users, especially US meds, kill it? If your entire post is telling me where ammo racks are, thank you but I've already seen the videos on youtube. If your entire post is condemning me for thinking your favorite tank is OP,we need to agree to disagree and move on. This post is not about that.

Here's the problem as I understand it: US meds have soft armor, and Pershing is no different. They are more agile than average, but not immensely more so. Their guns are decent, but not amazing. All of this together means that I get thoroughly outclassed by a Type59 every time I run into one. Am I new? Yes (2 weeks), but I also have 74 percent accuracy and climbing with a 100 percent crew and all the modules unlocked.

A typical encounter:

Let's assume I see the Type59 before it sees me, which is usually what happens. I shoot it in the side, aiming carefully for the top of the treads where I know the ammo racks are. I do maybe 18-22 percent damage. Type59 is alerted to my location, pivots on the spot and charges. He fires a quick shot while pivoting, which misses. I am now facing front armor.

If I remain stationary to take advantage of sniping mode, I try to aim for the lower right of the front glacis, which seems to have a 25 percent chance of actually hitting and penetrating a moving target. Assume again that I get lucky, squeeze him for 20 percent more damage. He fires a shot at this point, which penetrates and does 20-25 percent to me. He has now closed distance and is point blank.

I can no longer shoot the weak point on the front glacis, which is below my gun depression, so I slide past him on the side. However, he is so close that my third shot glances and does nothing at a bad angle. He shoots me in the side for another 20-25 percent. Probably knocks out a tread or my engine, making me even slower.

Type59 has now pivoted his front to me while I limp sideways, trying to point front armor back at him. No time, so I fire. Bounces off his front armor, 0 damage. He fires into my side, 25 percent. At this point, I have lost. I am not agile enough to face front to him, and his front is all I will see. He is so close I can't hit lower glacis. Everything bounces.


Since this isn't a thread about the Type59, but a thread about the Pershing and the Type59, why do I think my Pershing can't handle this tank?

1. Too slow
If I were an AMX13t, I'd just drive around like a maniac and force him to miss while I shot him with my ridiculously powerful gun, but I'm not, and can't. Correct me if I'm wrong (which I might be), but Type59 seems to have better acceleration, faster traverse speed, and equal top speed to myself. I need a side shot to damage this thing reliably, and I only ever seem to get one before I'm stuck facing impenetrable front armor and it's rolling up next to me.

2. Too soft
I know Type59 has weak points, I'm not disputing this. Ammo racks above treads, back of turret, blah blah blah. Problem is they are small and require me to be in sniper mode to hit them reliably. This would be fine if I was fighting a slow, ponderous thing I could out-maneuver, but the type59 is not that thing. To compete, I have to fire at targets 3 square feet in area that move faster than I do, or try to get behind an enemy tank that is faster than I am. Meanwhile, the type 59 sees a Pershing and can seemingly shoot it anywhere. I'm a huge and comparatively slow target that's so large he can fire on the move out of sniper mode and still penetrate every shot.

3. Too weak
My gun doesn't even penetrate lower glacis half the time I do hit the tiny thing, and I am on even tier with type59. As a side note, that lower right glacis "weak point" isn't that weak. Everything I fire at the majority of its surface area bounces. If I had a better penetrating gun, I could maybe buy myself enough time pivoting armor face instead of sniping, but as it stands I need to be in sniper mode in order to do anything at all when I'm facing its front armor. The 59 just shoots in my general direction and pens every time, moving or stationary, close or far.


Compounding all of this is the fact that these damned things are everywhere (just had a match with 9 of them at once that spurred me to post this), and I can't even get my own to put myself on equal footing with them. My Pershing on paper has higher armor values across the board than type59, but nothing I throw actually seems to land on it while everything he throws at me sticks just fine (is that armor slope? I don't know, please tell me). US med users, please give me some useful advice.

Ever noticed the Pershing's turret is extremely hard to go through also. Also hard to believe your 2 weeks in and already at the pershing with the long 90mm without skipping some tanks.

I don't think the lower glacis on the Type 59 is any weaker than the upper glacis. I find it is a completely lost cause to target this area since it is so small that the shell will likely pass under the tank, or is at an extreme angle because I have to look down on it. Try aiming at the lower portion of the upper glacis, you can negate some of the angle by shooting on a downward angle.

If the type 59 is point blank don't try to maneuver around it just to bounce shots. Let it sit infront of you and shoot its commanders hatch, it will penetrate every time.

Lastly, if you just can't seem to take them out on your own: don't try to. After taking your initial shots and getting the Type 59's attention move back into your allies and allow him to rush into several tanks.

My tactic with any low tier (5,6) tank is to try to kill it somehow (track it and shoot the sides, or shoot the turret cupola). If I manage to kill it, I play another round in that tank. If it kills me, I dust off any tier 8/9/10 heavy and kill the s**t out of all enemy T59s that round. You can't really win against T59. You might kill one, but there are dozens more that will replace it.

@GonTo30: What?  I "elited" (except patton) the pershing in less than a weak.

Remember that although premium tanks are supposed to be weaker, you're not supposed to be able to outright dominate any tank in your tier.  That wouldn't be fun.  

Now, expecting to be able to beat him with about 200-400 hp left, this is an easy task.  

1.  Fire the first shot, deal 200 dmg.
2.  Take a second shot, if he is far away and moving, aim to track him, if he is close, aim for the commander copula.
3.  Run away.

Also, dont even bother shooting at the hull if he's angled the front towards you.  But, even at around 45 degrees, you can pen the side no problem.

You shoot it.........Sides front I don't see where you cant pen it......Turret as normal. I don't have a persh though but looking at the gun stats just gonna have to aim better and watch the angles .

Check this out
http://forum.worldof...-59-dogfighting

Edit: Oh btw, just remember you don't want to shoot his lower glacis, that angle is too steep for you to pen, instead, shoot the head light (on Type 59 that's the engine location), behind the splash board. a Type 59 can pen another Type 59's upper glacis in close range and Pershing of course has no problem doing that at even far range.

Don't just sit there unless you are hull down, you can out turn a Type 59 so track him and go to his back or side get his ammo reck

As a medium you shouldn't be soloing tanks anyway.

That's the only reply you're getting from me with that $#!tty attitude of yours.

 GonTo30, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:18, said:

Once again, I know that Pershing has tougher armor on paper. I can't where I'm being shot most of the time I getting pelted, I just know it takes a type 59 comparatively little time to aim, hit, and pen me than I do him. Facing doesn't matter.

2 weeks, but 1,001 battles. Cleverpork > m3 > m5 > m7 > E8 > T20 > Pershing, with a tiny amount of time in German lights, also. Believe it, it's not that hard.  

 Colin_S, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:24, said:

I shoot at lower glacis because guides and tank weak point skins claim that is the weakest armor on front. I don't shoot commander's hatch because it's a tiny target and usually moving, often at bad angle that obscures almost all of it. If that's what  I have to do, then I'll make more of an effort to do so, but it seems unfair that I have to hit a vision slit while 59 can hit me anywhere below the turret. Nearly everything I shoot at upper glacis bounces, including driver's hatch.

Why are you fighting him on flat terrain?  American mediums excel in hills, while russian tanks excel when they can actually see beyond the little 2 meter slope infront of them.

You shouldnt expect to beat anyone 1 on 1 100% of the time.  If that were the case, the pershing would need to be nerfed.

 USMarine, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:30, said:

I only have an attitude issue with people that give me one. No one here has, so no harm no foul. I've openly stated that I am probably losing because I am new, not because of imbalance - it just seems that way because new players don't realize what they are doing wrong.

As for hunting in packs, I have posted a 1v1 example to illustrate the problem. If I were in a group of 3 meds, we would assume that the type59 is also, and I would be talking about 3 59s vs 3 Pershings, each of which can only attack one target at once. I don't see how this changes much, I am just aiming for simplicity.

I'll edit the language of my original post a bit to avoid offending anyone else.

Try using neutral steer to your advantage, it will help you angle your hull armor, enough for your tracks to absorb damage or for his shot to bounce, it will put you into an advantage, or alternatively, you can track him and take advantage of his weak side armor and his inability to neutral steer, which will take him quite some time for his frontal armor to face you again. Use both of the above tactics to your advantage.

Like Schrodinger said, you gotta use hills as an advantage. The type 59 has horrible gun depression and can't match it on uneven terrain.

If you find the Type 59 rushing straight at you, simple shoot its tracks and cause it to turn 90 degrees. It really works against the Type59.

 SchrodingersCake, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:34, said:

I don't always get an option of where I end up fighting, and this is a hypothetical scenario. If you're saying that I need to be on a hill in order to do well, please explain further - I'd like to know why.

I don't expect to beat them 100% of the time, but I do expect to beat them occasionally. As it stands, I lose perhaps 90% of my engagements with 59s of comparable health. I don't have this problem with any other medium of similar tier, just the 59. Right now, the 59 is beating me almost 100% of the time, that's the problem.

 EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:32, said:

I never use those skins but that's just me. I believe the best way to play a tank against another is to explore weak spots. Type59 is one of the tank that has "abnormal" weak spots compared to German tanks.

If you can't pen the upper glacis at close range, that must means the Type 59 driver angled his frontal armor, track him in this situation. I have no problem penetrating the upper glacis with Pershing. Also aim behind the splash board, not in front.

Just went through a training match with a fellow clan member because this post intrigued me. I took the Type 59 and he took his Pershing. He was able to pen the front of my 59 with no issue in multiple locations. Facehugging yes you can pretty much only aim for the commander hatches but that should be a no brainer to begin with. My shots on him never took out more than 17% and that is including hitting him with a couple criticals. So my suggestion is learn to angle your tank a bit better, find someone who has a 59 and is willing to go into a training room with you so you can see for yourself that you can shoot through the front without much issue and where to hit it. They are much closer to equal terms than you think.

As far as I can tell form your description you are in the wrong mindset regarding the 59. You should be focusing not on how to beat a 59 1v1 at close range because yes, you are at a disadvantage. You should rather be learning to take advantage of game mechanics (visibility, camo) as well as hull down positions and hard cover. Next time you spot a 59 in the distance unless you are hull down in a great spot (take advantage of your gun depression!) look and assess the situation. Think about trying to track him if hes running in the open or take a shot then move back around hard cover and make him come into a spot where multiple tanks/arty can shoot him if he wants to get a shot on you. It's also not a bad idea to realize when a spot/side is lost and it is a good idea to use something mediums are good at... MOVING! You don't always have to drive to a location and sit there till you die even if it is a great hull down spot, you can't beat two or three tanks of similar tier alone. You may also notice from a good portion of games the team with mediums and lights that manage to stay alive most or all of the game usually win. That's just my two cents, take what you want from it.

 9mmCapsule, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:41, said:

newb question: 'splashboard'?

 Danark, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:41, said:

You both have all the upgrades? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that just hasn't been my experience at all. I glance easily 80 percent of what I throw at 59 front armor, or get that magical 0 damage critical. Maybe angle does it? Were you both on perfectly flat ground, try it on some inclines?

Last night took out a Type 59 in my M5. Luck? Yes but it can be done. We just kept circling each other and he kept missing while I didn't.

EDIT: OK just reviewed my replay. Apparently I myself didn't do much damage, had a lot of help I wasn't aware of before so the above statement is only partially true.

 EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:46, said:

The board on Type 59's frontal armor that also exist on T-44, it separates the upper glacis into two areas, the upper area is the one you want to aim