Pershing vs Type59
SchrodingersCake
Feb 19 2012
MaxMike, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:17, said:
By hill I mean any slope that has a crest line you can peek over or down and cover all or part of your tank. It can be a real hill, a bump or just a gradual slope you can sit far enough back down on to mask your lower hull.
ETA do not get fixated on this one tactic remembered first your best tactic id to keep moving get to his sides and learn to fire on the move. Get a vertical stabilizer it helps a lot.
ETA do not get fixated on this one tactic remembered first your best tactic id to keep moving get to his sides and learn to fire on the move. Get a vertical stabilizer it helps a lot.
Yes, a medium's best asset is versatility.
Danark
Feb 19 2012
Kavik_Kang, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:20, said:
Just avoid the BS59's. On most maps it's obvious where the BS59's will go, go to the other side of the map. If you see a BS59, back out and go fight somewhere else. This is what I have started doing. If you in a Tier 7 or lower tank and there are BS59's in the game, you need to learn how to just avoid them. They are totally and completely unfair to any tank below Tier VIII and getting near one just means you are going to die. You can't harm it from the front and it will keep it's front pointing at you.
A Pershing is one of the few Tier VIII tanks that I will play like a Tier 7 or lower and just avoid the totally unfair BS59's. A Pershing can destroy a BS59, but you are at a HUGE disadvantage. The BS59nhas Tier 9 armor (the source of the problem) and you have to hit it from the side or back to hurt it in a Pershing. A Pershing is no match for a BS59. It's Tier 9 armor makes it, by far, the best Tier 8 medium, people who say otherwise just aren't thinking it through. The Tier 9 armor means it should be compared to Tier 9 mediums, not Tier 8 mediums. It is a Tier 9 tank with a weak gun, not a Tier 8 tank with inviincable armor. It has a HUGE advatage over any Tier 8 medium because it's armor is essentially inpenetrable while it will pen the other Tier 8 meds no matter where it hits them.
The BS59 should be raised to being a Tier 9 tank, have it's armor nerfed HEAVILY and remain at Tier 8, or simply removed from the game and refund the gold to everyone you take it away from.
I avoid them in anything less than a Tier 8 heavy because it is rediculously unfair to those tanks. If I am trying to get doubles done I immediately leave any game that has 3 or more BS59's on the enemy team. There is almost no chance of the team with the 3+ BS59's losing so it is a waste of time to stay in the game when all you care about is a win for the double.
The BS59 pretty much ruins the game for all Tier 7 and lower tanks because it is so rediculously unfair.
A Pershing is one of the few Tier VIII tanks that I will play like a Tier 7 or lower and just avoid the totally unfair BS59's. A Pershing can destroy a BS59, but you are at a HUGE disadvantage. The BS59nhas Tier 9 armor (the source of the problem) and you have to hit it from the side or back to hurt it in a Pershing. A Pershing is no match for a BS59. It's Tier 9 armor makes it, by far, the best Tier 8 medium, people who say otherwise just aren't thinking it through. The Tier 9 armor means it should be compared to Tier 9 mediums, not Tier 8 mediums. It is a Tier 9 tank with a weak gun, not a Tier 8 tank with inviincable armor. It has a HUGE advatage over any Tier 8 medium because it's armor is essentially inpenetrable while it will pen the other Tier 8 meds no matter where it hits them.
The BS59 should be raised to being a Tier 9 tank, have it's armor nerfed HEAVILY and remain at Tier 8, or simply removed from the game and refund the gold to everyone you take it away from.
I avoid them in anything less than a Tier 8 heavy because it is rediculously unfair to those tanks. If I am trying to get doubles done I immediately leave any game that has 3 or more BS59's on the enemy team. There is almost no chance of the team with the 3+ BS59's losing so it is a waste of time to stay in the game when all you care about is a win for the double.
The BS59 pretty much ruins the game for all Tier 7 and lower tanks because it is so rediculously unfair.
I think someone missed the memo about this not being a Type 59 bashing thread.
MaxMike
Feb 19 2012
Danark, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:24, said:
I think someone missed the memo about this not being a Type 59 bashing thread.
Yea and that kind of junk is of no help to the OP just reinforces his fears for no reason, and it is simply not true.
1. Most tier 7 heavies when handled right beat the T-59.
2. T-59 is a tier 8 tank it is not supposed to be easy for tier 7 tanks to kill.
3. The T-59 is not better than the other tier 8 mediums.
4. T-59 wolf packs can be handled with a little team work... but then hiding from them does not constitute team work.
ETA One last thing OP do run together with other tanks because you can support each other and when you track the T-59 everyone pours fire in to his sides... a tracked T-59 dies fast.
EkkoFoxtrot
Feb 19 2012
MaxMike, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:35, said:
Yea and that kind of junk is of no help to the OP just reinforces his fears for no reason, and it is simply not true.
1. Most tier 7 heavies when handled right beat the T-59.
2. T-59 is a tier 8 tank it is not supposed to be easy for tier 7 tanks to kill.
3. The T-59 is not better than the other tier 8 mediums.
4. T-59 wolf packs can be handled with a little team work... but then hiding from them does not constitute team work.
1. Most tier 7 heavies when handled right beat the T-59.
2. T-59 is a tier 8 tank it is not supposed to be easy for tier 7 tanks to kill.
3. The T-59 is not better than the other tier 8 mediums.
4. T-59 wolf packs can be handled with a little team work... but then hiding from them does not constitute team work.
I can kind of sympathize, though, since the impression I'm getting is that I have to put a lot more effort into killing a 59 than it has to put into killing me - there are a lot more preconditions necessary to give me a good chance of beating one. Using terrain, tracking, etc may work (need to practice more to see), but a 59 seems to excel at simply running forward as fast as possible and blasting you from the hip. It has a low profile that makes it hard to hit when it's hiding, too. And as far as tracking - he can just as easily track me, and then I'm pretty much screwed, right?
MaxMike
Feb 19 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:39, said:
I can kind of sympathize, though, since the impression I'm getting is that I have to put a lot more effort into killing a 59 than it has to put into killing me - there are a lot more preconditions necessary to give me a good chance of beating one. Using terrain, tracking, etc may work (need to practice more to see), but a 59 seems to excel at simply running forward as fast as possible and blasting you from the hip. It has a low profile that makes it hard to hit when it's hiding, too. And as far as tracking - he can just as easily track me, and then I'm pretty much screwed, right?
You got to fix that... until you do you are starting at a disadvantage.
Until you get the attitude that when you see a T-59 you hunt him he will always have the initiative. Having the initiative and controlling the fight on your terms is a big part of beating the T-59 and most other tanks.
You gots to get your mind right.
EkkoFoxtrot
Feb 19 2012
Just got out of a round with my E8. Ran into a 59, he did exactly what I described. I zoomed in on his commander's cupola and bounced 3 shots off of it. I know I hit them because there were 3 ricochet marks on it, all stacked on top of each other. It's seriously frustrating.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
Danark
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:58, said:
Just got out of a round with my E8. Ran into a 59, he did exactly what I described. I zoomed in on his commander's cupola and bounced 3 shots off of it. I know I hit them because there were 3 ricochet marks on it, all stacked on top of each other. It's seriously frustrating.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
That's an easy 8 not the Pershing. Try not to think that the easy 8 is going to have an easier time with a Type 59 than a Pershing because that will just get you killed faster. Also the easy 8 don't have the cannon to deal with a 59 from the front, where a Pershing does. And unless you are right on top of that 59 facehugging him, shots on the commander's hatch are going to be even less reliable.
NoMoreChillies
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:11, said:
2. Too soft
Meanwhile, the type 59 sees a Pershing and can seemingly shoot it anywhere. I'm a huge and comparatively slow target that's so large he can fire on the move out of sniper mode and still penetrate every shot.
This continues on the Patton, and is the main reason i sold mine and got T-54. US armor is non existant
Siriothrax
Feb 20 2012
Hey Ekko,
Read your post, and as a dedicated Pershing driver who loves the tank to bits, I can understand how it can sometimes be frustrating. The most crucial thing I've found is to shape the battlefield to your advantage, as has been mentioned. Get him distracted, get him tracked in the open where arty or teammates can whale on him, or if you're alone, find a hilly area where you can abuse your superior acceleration, moving accuracy, and gun depression to exploit his weak sides and vulnerability to ammo racking.
Off topic, your attitude is pretty chill. You've come into this with a pretty good attitude and are intent on learning instead of non-constructive raging, and I respect that a ton. If you ever want to platoon up to learn in action, hit me up in-game and I'll do what I can to help you. I could also probably grab a clanmate who has a 59 to duel you. Either way, best of luck and good hunting!
Cheers,
Siri
PS In the context of 59 vs Pershing, the Pershing does have to play smart in order to win. However, applying those same smarts to fights against other tanks, such as heavies and higher tiers, means that the Pershing is far more deadly as an underdog than the 59 will ever be. Once the enemy has big enough guns that they don't care about how good the 59s armor is, all that's left is effective offense, which is comparatively lacking.
Read your post, and as a dedicated Pershing driver who loves the tank to bits, I can understand how it can sometimes be frustrating. The most crucial thing I've found is to shape the battlefield to your advantage, as has been mentioned. Get him distracted, get him tracked in the open where arty or teammates can whale on him, or if you're alone, find a hilly area where you can abuse your superior acceleration, moving accuracy, and gun depression to exploit his weak sides and vulnerability to ammo racking.
Off topic, your attitude is pretty chill. You've come into this with a pretty good attitude and are intent on learning instead of non-constructive raging, and I respect that a ton. If you ever want to platoon up to learn in action, hit me up in-game and I'll do what I can to help you. I could also probably grab a clanmate who has a 59 to duel you. Either way, best of luck and good hunting!
Cheers,
Siri
PS In the context of 59 vs Pershing, the Pershing does have to play smart in order to win. However, applying those same smarts to fights against other tanks, such as heavies and higher tiers, means that the Pershing is far more deadly as an underdog than the 59 will ever be. Once the enemy has big enough guns that they don't care about how good the 59s armor is, all that's left is effective offense, which is comparatively lacking.
Siriothrax
Feb 20 2012
NoMoreChillies, on Feb 20 2012 - 00:13, said:
This continues on the Patton, and is the main reason i sold mine and got T-54. US armor is non existant
Funny. I couldn't stand the T-54. Anemic gun, bad accuracy, slow aim time, and zero gun depression made me want to cry. Didn't fit my style at all, which involves killing things without being exposed in the first place, so no need for armor. Just sold it and got the Patton, and in the very first upgraded match I did very bad things to an E75 and IS7 that I wouldn't have been able to in my T-54. Whatever floats your boat, though.
MaxMike
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 23:58, said:
Just got out of a round with my E8. Ran into a 59, he did exactly what I described. I zoomed in on his commander's cupola and bounced 3 shots off of it. I know I hit them because there were 3 ricochet marks on it, all stacked on top of each other. It's seriously frustrating.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
I will try to FRAPS some footage so you can see where I'm coming from here.
It is a tier 6 E8 unless you get at his sides AND have help you will die. You can never take on a T-59 in a E8 alone and win unless the T-59 driver is a moron or you get lucky an kaboom him.
SchrodingersCake
Feb 20 2012
MaxMike, on Feb 20 2012 - 00:19, said:
It is a tier 6 E8 unless you get at his sides AND have help you will die. You can never take on a T-59 in a E8 alone and win unless the T-59 driver is a moron or you get lucky an kaboom him.
Haha, the first time I put the long gun on my t34 85, a t59 poppud out from the city, I panicked and shot at his side without aiming and blew him up in one shot. World of Luck
EkkoFoxtrot
Feb 20 2012
Siriothrax, on Feb 20 2012 - 00:15, said:
Hey Ekko,
Read your post, and as a dedicated Pershing driver who loves the tank to bits, I can understand how it can sometimes be frustrating. The most crucial thing I've found is to shape the battlefield to your advantage, as has been mentioned. Get him distracted, get him tracked in the open where arty or teammates can whale on him, or if you're alone, find a hilly area where you can abuse your superior acceleration, moving accuracy, and gun depression to exploit his weak sides and vulnerability to ammo racking.
Off topic, your attitude is pretty chill. You've come into this with a pretty good attitude and are intent on learning instead of non-constructive raging, and I respect that a ton. If you ever want to platoon up to learn in action, hit me up in-game and I'll do what I can to help you. I could also probably grab a clanmate who has a 59 to duel you. Either way, best of luck and good hunting!
Cheers,
Siri
PS In the context of 59 vs Pershing, the Pershing does have to play smart in order to win. However, applying those same smarts to fights against other tanks, such as heavies and higher tiers, means that the Pershing is far more deadly as an underdog than the 59 will ever be. Once the enemy has big enough guns that they don't care about how good the 59s armor is, all that's left is effective offense, which is comparatively lacking.
Read your post, and as a dedicated Pershing driver who loves the tank to bits, I can understand how it can sometimes be frustrating. The most crucial thing I've found is to shape the battlefield to your advantage, as has been mentioned. Get him distracted, get him tracked in the open where arty or teammates can whale on him, or if you're alone, find a hilly area where you can abuse your superior acceleration, moving accuracy, and gun depression to exploit his weak sides and vulnerability to ammo racking.
Off topic, your attitude is pretty chill. You've come into this with a pretty good attitude and are intent on learning instead of non-constructive raging, and I respect that a ton. If you ever want to platoon up to learn in action, hit me up in-game and I'll do what I can to help you. I could also probably grab a clanmate who has a 59 to duel you. Either way, best of luck and good hunting!
Cheers,
Siri
PS In the context of 59 vs Pershing, the Pershing does have to play smart in order to win. However, applying those same smarts to fights against other tanks, such as heavies and higher tiers, means that the Pershing is far more deadly as an underdog than the 59 will ever be. Once the enemy has big enough guns that they don't care about how good the 59s armor is, all that's left is effective offense, which is comparatively lacking.
I do all my raging over ventrilo with my friends, so it's all done by the time I hit the forums for help.
Yin_STAT
Feb 20 2012
I know what you're taking about. I own a pershing as well as a type 59, I compare them from time to time when I'm driving them. If you are in a pershing and you take on a type 59 alone, you hv >50% chance to lose even you know where are the weak points to shoot at (assuming both drivers are equally skillful). This is simply becoz pershing got no armor at all (in its tier's match) while type 59 still stand a chance to bounce your shot (due to your low penetration gun). So if a 59 runs right into you, you probably need some help, taking it on your own is very risky, even you can win, theres not much HP left for you to continue the game.
The only advantage you have is your long view range. Type 59 probably can't see you if u fire from a well hidden place. Just avoid brawling with a russian medium...thats what they are design for, which US medium weak on. Pershing for me is a supporting and a scout tank. Just spot targets for your big guys, while mobile yourself through the map to help out your teammates. You will do fine
The only advantage you have is your long view range. Type 59 probably can't see you if u fire from a well hidden place. Just avoid brawling with a russian medium...thats what they are design for, which US medium weak on. Pershing for me is a supporting and a scout tank. Just spot targets for your big guys, while mobile yourself through the map to help out your teammates. You will do fine
Siriothrax
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 20 2012 - 00:44, said:
I do all my raging over ventrilo with my friends, so it's all done by the time I hit the forums for help.
Yup, but it means you're ready to listen. A lot of the time, you see people venting about "OP" this, "broken" that, or "hacks" whatever and unwilling to take the best of intentioned advice, resorting to attacking the player explaining their mistake instead of admitting that maybe they don't know enough. So, again, props for giving the topic thought and asking nicely.
I'm not against raging in the moment, that's fine. Half of my games, I'm like this:
http://c.images.meme...0x/14883970.jpg
Amonaug
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:52, said:
I'm not in an m5, I don't have the speed you do. I know other tanks can beat it, even lighter tanks in certain situations. My question is how does Pershing beat it without relying on luck.
I've also beaten them in my T20, haven't driven a Pershing yet but don't they have similar stats just a tad more armor?
Now when I was in my E8 I thought the Type 59 was over powered as I could barely touch it, once I got the 90mm on the T20 I'm not so wary about them anymore.
Siriothrax
Feb 20 2012
Amonaug, on Feb 20 2012 - 01:08, said:
I've also beaten them in my T20, haven't driven a Pershing yet but don't they have similar stats just a tad more armor?
Now when I was in my E8 I thought the Type 59 was over powered as I could barely touch it, once I got the 90mm on the T20 I'm not so wary about them anymore.
Now when I was in my E8 I thought the Type 59 was over powered as I could barely touch it, once I got the 90mm on the T20 I'm not so wary about them anymore.
The armor is inconsequential, although you may bounce a few shots every now and then. The difference is better DPM (don't quote me, this is IIRC), better pen, better moving accuracy, and much better agility. I'm not entirely sure how much better the Pershing turret is than the T20; I hadn't quite figured out hull-downing when I was in the T20, so I don't have a baseline to compare against, but the Pershing's gun mantlet is actually quite bouncy - a perk that you can use to good effect once in a while, but not good enough to rely on like the T32's.
frostys
Feb 20 2012
Only advice I have for you OP is track him while he runs toward you. Half the time it will spin off showing his side for you to shoot at.
Orion03
Feb 20 2012
Hmm, now I have to say I don't have a Pershing, but I have been beaten up by enough Pershings in my 59 that I know a Pershing is the one tier 8 medium that'll eat my 59 for breakfast.
Also the 59 is my most killed tank, having killed 204 of them. so I tend to be efficient at taking out other 59's.
Now:
I would have gone for the big front sprocket for a tracking and full damage shot, or the rear sprocket if that's visible, he'll then be tracked and sitting sideways to you and if he doesn't use a repair kit you should be able to hit him before he can repair tracks. Anyway....
Why not take a shot at the tracks? that'll spin him around for you to pound his sides.
Or
I've have gone for where that plank meets the hull on the front.
Why not just go nose to nose for a face hug? hold him there and shoot the commanders hatch? that's how I get a lot of 59's
I'll drive forwards and back crashing into him to bounce his gun up and down so that he misses his shot and then put a shell into his commanders hatch.
As I see it, the Pershing advantage is acceleration and agility. Type 59 have bouncy front.
Most of the Pershing's that kill my 59 just track me and circle me to my weak sides and rear. Once the 59 is tracked it take forever to accelerate.
so engaging a type 59 while you are stationary.... just means you are throwing away your strengths and letting him use his.
Here's a guide to american mediums written by a friend of mine:
http://forum.worldof...merican-mediums
If you see me online in game, drop me a message and we can do a training room of 59 vs Pershing.
Also the 59 is my most killed tank, having killed 204 of them. so I tend to be efficient at taking out other 59's.
Now:
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:11, said:
A typical encounter:
Let's assume I see the Type59 before it sees me, which is usually what happens. I shoot it in the side, aiming carefully for the top of the treads where I know the ammo racks are. I do maybe 18-22 percent damage. Type59 is alerted to my location, pivots on the spot and charges. He fires a quick shot while pivoting, which misses. I am now facing front armor.
Let's assume I see the Type59 before it sees me, which is usually what happens. I shoot it in the side, aiming carefully for the top of the treads where I know the ammo racks are. I do maybe 18-22 percent damage. Type59 is alerted to my location, pivots on the spot and charges. He fires a quick shot while pivoting, which misses. I am now facing front armor.
I would have gone for the big front sprocket for a tracking and full damage shot, or the rear sprocket if that's visible, he'll then be tracked and sitting sideways to you and if he doesn't use a repair kit you should be able to hit him before he can repair tracks. Anyway....
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:11, said:
If I remain stationary to take advantage of sniping mode, I try to aim for the lower right of the front glacis, which seems to have a 25 percent chance of actually hitting and penetrating a moving target. Assume again that I get lucky, squeeze him for 20 percent more damage. He fires a shot at this point, which penetrates and does 20-25 percent to me. He has now closed distance and is point blank.
Why not take a shot at the tracks? that'll spin him around for you to pound his sides.
Or
I've have gone for where that plank meets the hull on the front.
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:11, said:
I can no longer shoot the weak point on the front glacis, which is below my gun depression, so I slide past him on the side.
Why not just go nose to nose for a face hug? hold him there and shoot the commanders hatch? that's how I get a lot of 59's
I'll drive forwards and back crashing into him to bounce his gun up and down so that he misses his shot and then put a shell into his commanders hatch.
As I see it, the Pershing advantage is acceleration and agility. Type 59 have bouncy front.
Most of the Pershing's that kill my 59 just track me and circle me to my weak sides and rear. Once the 59 is tracked it take forever to accelerate.
so engaging a type 59 while you are stationary.... just means you are throwing away your strengths and letting him use his.
Here's a guide to american mediums written by a friend of mine:
http://forum.worldof...merican-mediums
If you see me online in game, drop me a message and we can do a training room of 59 vs Pershing.
Shadow__
Feb 20 2012
EkkoFoxtrot, on Feb 19 2012 - 22:11, said:
Here's the problem as I understand it: US meds have soft armor, and Pershing is no different. They are more agile than average, but not immensely more so. Their guns are decent, but not amazing. All of this together means that I get thoroughly outclassed by a Type59 every time I run into one. Am I new? Yes (2 weeks), but I also have 74 percent accuracy and climbing with a 100 percent crew and all the modules unlocked.
If the type 59 is smart, he has a decent chance of winning due to subpar pen of the long 90mm and his solid frontal armor. Just keep your distance and engage in a 100-200 meters shootout. Pershing will have a really hard time penning the type and has to either close the distance, which means he will take a couple of hits, go hull down or simply run away.
However, in a straight up dogfight, Pershing should win. If you're losing up close in your elite Pershing, just be patient and practice. Running in circles shooting his side, using terrain if possible should land a hit every time and keep his side exposed. Tracking him will help you a lot too since type has really bad acc. You can also facehug him and pen his upper glacis or commander's cupola while he most likely can't depress his gun to hit your hull(and you should move your turret so he can't hit your copula so easily
). Lower glacis is not a weak point on a type 59 and T-54, unless you are hitting it at a reduced angle, e.g. he is coming over the hill or something. For type 59, it's 100mm at 55 degrees (upper glacis is 100mm at 60) and due to angle you are shooting at it, you are most likely better off just shooting his upper glacis. The reason your long 90mm gun is bouncing is that the armor on type 59 is highly sloped(upper glacis is around 180mm effective) so it needs a good pen roll to go through, especially at range.
