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Kruppcake #41 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 04:13

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View PostSirDarklight, on Mar 02 2012 - 03:57, said:

kruppcake  what good dose the rant do. what dose it show. nothing but the rants of a mad man.
so as i see  no better the grunts and gestures. you words are not heard.  
makes you look like one of the  hot head that the  speaker was talking about
he ask why  so they rant at him in game when he misspells.  guess what  in battle i'm not looking to closely at the keys or my spelling.
yes i do know the hot key  for help. but when you trying to give info. like e75 50%  lowe and a tg2. need help what doe it matter i misspelled  Lowe  tg2 and e-75 was not  worded right.  you do not care really its a 3 on one you just trying to get help before  that side gets over ran. this make the point.
in game he speaks  he gets  down graded for not spelling it  right or  not proper grammar. who the hell has the time to  check spelling and grammar. only the dead

I don't criticize people for their spelling in battle, as obviously there are other things going on.  In fact, in general, I don't usually say anything about poor writing in game, even when I want to. One never knows if the person writes poorly because English is not their native language, or because they are very young, or because they have a developmental issue, etc.

I wasn't responding at all to the issue of insulting people in battle. I was responding to the poster who asked why good spelling and proper grammar matter. That is a completely different aspect of the subject. Steeltrap answered that question rather well, and I was seconding his comments and adding a little of my own.  It's fine if you take issue with the idea that communication is vital, and thus knowing how to communicate well is not only an advantage, but almost a necessity.  However, some things are given, and one of those is the simple truth that if you communicate poorly, you are going to close a lot of doors in your own face and risk the bad opinion, mockery or insult of others.  Sooner or later, in some format or venue, poor communication skills will haunt you. (And I mean the figurative "you," as in anyone, not "you," the poster, specifically.)  To protest when it happens is rather like suing the power company  because you keep sticking your finger in a socket and getting shocked.

Hobbe #42 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 04:20

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My policy on grammar and typos: If you can figure out what he's trying to type well enough to correct him, then you understood what he meant, so STFU. Otherwise say "what?".

seedfromheck #43 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 04:28

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THIS THREAD IS AN EPIC WIN :Smile_great::Smile-izmena::Smile_great::Smile-izmena:

JohnGaltCobraCommander #44 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 17:15

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View PostVonKrieg, on Mar 02 2012 - 04:13, said:

Fixed.

You're welcome.

Well done fine sir, would you like to start a grammar Nazi army with me? :D

Darth_Enderis #45 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 17:26

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Yea but then you have people like me with minor dislexia and super reading powers, and a times I put words reversed and the like and my eyes wont tell my brain that's it's wrong.


It happens, but honestly people calling you out on your typing skills while playing a tanking game? Pretty boring.



If anyone is going to waste the time during a battle to tell me I type poorly, then so be it. I will just make sure I shoot a helluva alot better than I type.

Nuckchorris #46 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 17:29

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It's just etiquette.

Before calling someone stupid/idiot/moron you might want to make sure your own lack of intelligence doesn't show. You get double fail points if you manage to misspell the insult itself.

I mean I just don't get insulted much by being called a "moran".

mike197519 #47 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 17:55

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In 1911, French psychologists Alfred Binet and Theodore Simon created the first modern intelligence test, which measured intelligence (hence the “intelligence quotient”) based on whether children could accomplish tasks like pointing to their nose (honestly) and counting pennies. The concept of “IQ” followed soon after, and psychologists fell so deeply in love with the scientific nature of the tests that they created classification systems.

Any child with an IQ of above 70 was considered “normal,” while those with scores above 130 were considered “gifted.” To classify scores below 70, psychologists invented a nomenclature of retardation. Those with IQs between 51 and 70 were called morons. Morons had adequate learning skills to complete menial tasks and communicate.

Imbeciles, with IQs between 26 and 50, never progressed past a mental age of about six. And the lowest of all were the idiots, with IQs between 0 and 25, who were characterized by poor motor skills, extremely limited communication, and little response to stimulus.

The moron/imbecile/idiot classifications remained popular, amazingly, until the early 1970s, when people started to note that the developmentally disabled have enough difficulties without being saddled with condescending labels.

Today the classification system is one category broader—moron, imbecile, and idiot have been replaced with mild, moderate, severe, and profound retardation—and diagnostic factors other than IQ are considered in making a diagnosis.

http://www.mentalflo...idiot-vs-moron/

KilljoyCutter #48 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 19:45

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I only point out spelling and other issues on the in-game when someone is trying to insult me in Twitter-speak, or is either too stupid or too lazy to avoid butchering the language.

Jovialmadness #49 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 19:51

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View PostNeoGodHobo, on Mar 01 2012 - 23:51, said:

Are people so Moronic now they have to insult someone who makes a spelling error. I see this often, ( to me, or others ) No matter how much you may be right, your point  is un-validate  as soon as you put a spelling error, suddenly whatever you say makes no importance.

Spelling errors can be because of so many reason

-English not first Language
-New keyboard
-Cat on the keyboard
-Drunkeness
-Highness
-Simple Error
-Typing information quickly ( in my case, I am trying to type quick, because information needs to go around quickly while playing at the same time. )

For exemple someone might type  :  KV gong E4 of the map, neds assistance !

2 major spelling error are seen here. The answer this guy is probably going to get in public match is :

a- ( The Typical Insults ) You REMOVED moron you dont even know how to write !
b- (The : I refuse to help you because you spelled wrong ) Your an idiot why should I help/Assist You
c- (Il simply laugh at you to incite other people to do so ) lol

Because making fun of someone is really important in a group. Other people are going to get on your case also. While all this discussion is going on, no one actually pays attention to what you were trying to quickly type : The Threat of a KV.

Now I understand there are many young players. And that in school, your a punish if you do not spell right ( Or I dont know whatever lame excuse they got to do so )But this got to stop. Its childish, annoying. and it make the team loose vital information and concentration ( both team in some case )

Its as if we wouldnt be better off to have 1 or 2 players stay at base and do nothing but talk to the enemy and do spelling error in order to get their attention off the game. I notice sometimes, when treads like this a are put on, the majority of the players realise how dumb they were and choose to stop being childish.... I notice great improvement over time with insult and whatso on the game after such tread were put on.


My goal here : To stop this childish situation. Internet is a big go for coward who like to insult people behind a screen. hiding in their home, and it get really frustrating. There is nothing to be proud of, after insulting people on the internet for absolutly no reason. If you want to feel superior, go out to your local drugs dealers, or to your local Squeejee punk. And insult them.

It is ok to address an issue you feel needs to be looked at, however, please do so without profanities~warning~metalgold

I take offense to this and so does my cat.  He has pressed the "W" key many a time while sitting on my keyboard during a battle attempting to hoard all the attention.  This pressing of the "W" key has saved me a few times from arty.

JediKush #50 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 20:57

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This behavior isn't exclusive to world of tanks.  It happens in all online games and forums.  If they can insult you, they will, and spelling errors are just an overused easy target.  Think about what makes up the typical audience online and you can understand a little better as to why they act as they do.  Underachievers with a low self esteem look to anything to give them a little boost, and honestly if that makes them feel better about themselves if only for a few minutes before they realize they still fail at life what's the harm?

PeterGunn_ #51 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 20:59

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I must concur with some of the more erudite posters above.  I can forgive a lot during a game in the chat window because it is a game and the person is trying to run their tank.  In a less hectic setting however, if you can't frame a sentence or spell correctly, well, to me, get used to saying "You want fries with that?".

I am frequently amazed at some of the people I work with that are supposedly "highly educated" when they send out pathetic email fraught with errors of both spelling and grammar.  Yeesh.  I try but am not always successful, but hey, that's what the spell check is for.

But I understand Jovialmadness, once, my cat jumped up to the keyboard during a match.  I believe he sent several all chats of the "alkjd fl;ajsdf9df af 8dsu asfj" variety along with firing my gun into the ground and hitting just about every F key that sends a signal.  Yeah, that wasn't too embarassing... :facepalmic:

edit: HA! Had to correct a spelling error of my own. :lol:

furrymongo #52 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 22:08

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Its not a question of "grammar nazis", its a question of astuteness and correctness. Most who take offense to being corrected have high self-esteem, but low tolerance of indignation.  If you continually and habitually use improper grammar, be forewarned that those of us with time and patience to correct you... will.  If for some reason you take offense to being corrected, the problem lies within your psyche, not ours.

KilgorSoS #53 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 23:04

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Well said OP, when a child loses a debate, or is proven wrong, they will throw an irrelevant "Kitchen sink" at you. In these forums, when someone feels defeat beating them with the "Homey Sock" they will respond by attacking, typing, and grammar, as the only way to satisfy themselves.

Ezz #54 Posted Mar 02 2012 - 23:39

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View PostKilgorSoS, on Mar 02 2012 - 23:04, said:

they will respond by attacking, typing, and grammar, as the only way to satisfy themselves.
Those commas are not required... :P

Couldn't help myself. But yes, i feel satisfied now. :)

SirDarklight #55 Posted Mar 03 2012 - 23:55

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word are spoken to covey a thought, give one's point of view. weather  you agree or disagree should be this issue. not the  form in witch it is put.
no i do not always put  the proper grammar into it. it is not of  lack of education, more on the lines of trying to type as fast as my thoughts come forth.
do i put them in properly no dose lack of proper grammar hamper you.
for those of you who think it dose. guess what! i do quite well working my whole life make a good middle class wage. pay all my bills. wow and have enough money left over to play games like this and pay my way threw it. so your  theory of poor grammar leaves you know where in life just missed the boat with me.
try something else,

and lest look at the past history of all of us. my grandfather could not read  or  write but yet he  owned and ran his  business for  most of his life its not  weather you can spell or  use proper grammar in life that gets you  there. it the determination and drive with in you to get it do. along with  smarts. so all you  grammar  guru's and spelling bee. if you not in school or teaching it.. " give it up and look at the speakers  view.  and if you have to insult anyone try this.  walk to a mirror and speak to what you see there.

Kruppcake #56 Posted Mar 04 2012 - 06:18

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WARNING, WARNING!  DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!  SENSORS DETECT INCOMING TEXT WALL! SKIP POST IF YOU LACK PATIENCE OR LITERACY![


View PostSirDarklight, on Mar 03 2012 - 23:55, said:

word are spoken to covey a thought, give one's point of view. weather  you agree or disagree should be this issue. not the  form in witch it is put.

Of course. Ideas and thoughts should be judged according to their content, rationality, utility, etc.  Poor language doesn't negate a good point, and eloquence doesn't make a bad idea good.  However, bad language can distort or even obscure points and ideas, preventing people from understanding and appreciating them, just as eloquence has often won over people to things they should have spent more time thinking about.  For this reason, anyone who would like people to better understand their ideas, thoughts, arguments, etc., has good incentive to communicate them as well as they can.  Communication is more than  just the content.

I don't think anyone here was arguing that you should automatically dismiss anything that isn't written perfectly.  However, the worse an individual's writing, the more likely it is that their contributions will be misunderstood. And, if trying to decipher what someone is attempting to say is too difficult or time-consuming, people will eventually stop trying. This is simple human behavior, not intentional insult or judgement.


View PostSirDarklight, on Mar 03 2012 - 23:55, said:

for those of you who think it dose. guess what! i do quite well working my whole life make a good middle class wage. pay all my bills. wow and have enough money left over to play games like this and pay my way threw it. so your  theory of poor grammar leaves you know where in life just missed the boat with me.  
try something else

Congratulations on achieving financial security, you are a very fortunate individual.  However, argument by anecdote (personal experience, yours or someone else's) is not proof, nor is it even good evidence to apply to a broad argument.  Economic opportunity/flexibility is just one reason why good communication skills pay off.  As I mentioned previously, any number of studies and compilations of census reports for developed societies establish this principle beyond any doubt.  The more educated an individual is, and the more literate they are, on average, the greater their income.  There are, however, always exceptions to every rule. It is possible to compensate economically for lack of a broad general education or developed writing/speaking skills through a number of ways, such as familial resources, acquiring or possessing rare skills, specialized training in a trade, membership in a privileged class, organization, group, etc.  This fact, however, does not stand as an argument that an individual should be satisfied with substandard communication skills, or that superior communication skills don't bring with them, on average, superior economic opportunities.

View PostSirDarklight, on Mar 03 2012 - 23:55, said:

  and lest look at the past history of all of us. my grandfather could not read  or  write but yet he  owned and ran his  business for  most of his life its not  weather you can spell or  use proper grammar in life that gets you  there. it the determination and drive with in you to get it do. along with  smarts.


Naturally, smarts, hard work and perseverance increase chances of economic success.  However, they alone do not insure it, and in fact, there is good evidence to believe that they are not the decisive factors in the success of any business endeavor.  

Most businesses, by far, fail within five years of founding.  This is a standard characteristic of entrepreneurial economic systems, and always has been. Many of these endeavors are undertaken by talented, skilled, intelligent people who work very, very hard.  Unfortunately, it takes more than these things to make a business successful.

Furthermore, there are millions of people who work very hard, very long hours and who barely manage to stay afloat economically.  For these people it is not a lack of work ethic or perseverance that is limiting their economic options or potential.  There are simply a great many factors involved, only two of which are relative educational attainment and communication ability.

It is a good thing for your family lineage that your grandparents and you have managed to achieve economic stability and prosperity. I have no doubt that hard work, perseverance and savvy have paid off for you. Unfortunately though, for the case of this discussion, your family's example is not a proof that lack of education or communication ability is irrelevant, or that possessing education and good communication skills is an advantage.

View PostSirDarklight, on Mar 03 2012 - 23:55, said:

so all you  grammar  guru's and spelling bee. if you not in school or teaching it.. " give it up and look at the speakers  view.  and if you have to insult anyone try this.  walk to a mirror and speak to what you see there.

Pointing out someone's errors and mistakes, be it in grammar, spelling, knowledge, argument or technical expertise at some skill or endeavor, is not automatically an attempt to insult them. Much depends on the intent of the one pointing out the mistake, the manner in which they go about pointing it out, and what, if anything, they are willing to do to help the individual correct or avoid the mistake.  It is never easy to have our mistakes pointed out, and though we may benefit from the process, we, as people, still don't like to go through the process.

I am in complete agreement that people should always try to examine the content and validity of the message, rather than judge the messenger. Unfortunately, however, this is a case where the messenger's abilities in a certain area are going to directly affect the delivery of the message. You can not separate mode and quality of communication from the effectiveness and usefulness of the content communicated. We don't put up with chronic static and fadeouts in our cellphones, if there is anything we can do about it.  We wouldn't intentionally keep watching a TV broadcast that is full of interference, static and interruptions, unless we had no other choice. Why? Because these problems interfere with the content we require or wish to receive. The same principle is true when it comes to written and spoken communication.  This is one reason why, in many cases, poor written and spoken English skills will weed out job applicants at the start, no matter their experience or skill. Why would someone hire an individual who is a poor communicator when there are other acceptable applicants who communicate well?  

Among other adventures and careers in my life, I've been to school, I've taught in colleges and universities, and I've tutored and counseled individuals. I have seen more instances than I could possibly remember or count of  good people coming up short and being denied entrance into schools and programs, or denied jobs, because of poor communication skills.  If education and communication ability were not vital to modern personal and professional development, brick-and-mortar and virtual educational institutions would not be filled with returning and non-traditional students desperately trying to gain training, a degree and learn how to communicate more effectively in written and oral formats.  I have a box full of cards and letters from former students either thanking me profusely for the rigor I put them through, or, sadly, lamenting that they wished they had paid much more attention to what I was trying to get them to do.  I find this a fairly universal phenomena among teachers who truly care enough about their students to tell them the hard truths and demand the best from them
.
And, while anecdotal evidence is not ironclad proof, in this application it certainly reflects and reinforces what the hard data is trying to tell us all -- in a modern, complex, highly media-oriented society, communication skills are vital to your personal and professional life.  Be satisfied with poor quality and a lack of knowledge at your own risk.

Insulting others about their communication skills, especially in a video/computer game, is not going to be of much help to them, and it certainly isn't a substitute for good teaching or a real concern and involvement in someone's interests or life.

However, pointing out glaring and obvious and chronic poor communication habits is not the same thing as deliberately mocking or insulting, and like anything else, if it is taken as what it is, it can help people realize that they can do better, if they wish to.

Last, it is perfectly reasonable, at some point, to expect individuals to call attention to poor communication, especially in a public forum where communication is the intent.  It is perfectly unreasonable, at some point, to expect to be able to communicate poorly and not have others mention the fact, and suggest that if someone wishes to keep communicating or to communicate effectively, that they would be well served by doing so in a more technically correct and understandable manner.

Husarski #57 Posted Mar 04 2012 - 06:34

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I like the fast tanks. So I am usually zipping about going 60kph+ when im typing messages, shooting and avoiding things like incoming shells and obstables.

As such my messages usually are not 100% accurate for spelling and grammar. I am busy killing....

To make fun of someone banging off messages of importance for your team is idiocy.

SirDarklight #58 Posted Mar 04 2012 - 07:22

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View PostKruppcake, on Mar 04 2012 - 06:18, said:

WARNING, WARNING!  DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!  SENSORS DETECT INCOMING TEXT WALL! SKIP POST IF YOU LACK PATIENCE OR LITERACY![




Of course. Ideas and thoughts should be judged according to their content, rationality, utility, etc.  Poor language doesn't negate a good point, and eloquence doesn't make a bad idea good.  However, bad language can distort or even obscure points and ideas, preventing people from understanding and appreciating them, just as eloquence has often won over people to things they should have spent more time thinking about.  For this reason, anyone who would like people to better understand their ideas, thoughts, arguments, etc., has good incentive to communicate them as well as they can.  Communication is more than  just the content.

I don't think anyone here was arguing that you should automatically dismiss anything that isn't written perfectly.  However, the worse an individual's writing, the more likely it is that their contributions will be misunderstood. And, if trying to decipher what someone is attempting to say is too difficult or time-consuming, people will eventually stop trying. This is simple human behavior, not intentional insult or judgement.




Congratulations on achieving financial security, you are a very fortunate individual.  However, argument by anecdote (personal experience, yours or someone else's) is not proof, nor is it even good evidence to apply to a broad argument.  Economic opportunity/flexibility is just one reason why good communication skills pay off.  As I mentioned previously, any number of studies and compilations of census reports for developed societies establish this principle beyond any doubt.  The more educated an individual is, and the more literate they are, one average, the greater their income.  Their are, however, always exceptions to every rule. It is possible to compensate economically for lack of a broad general education or developed writing/speaking skills through a number of ways, such as familial resources, acquiring or possessing rare skills, specialized training in a trade, membership in a privileged class, organization, group, etc.  This fact, however, does not stand as an argument that an individual should be satisfied with substandard communication skills, or that superior communication skills don't bring with them, on average, superior economic opportunities.



Naturally, smarts, hard work and perseverance increase chances of economic success.  However, they alone do not insure it, and in fact, there is good evidence to believe that they are not the decisive factors in the success of any business endeavor.  

Most businesses, by far, fail within five years of founding.  This is a standard characteristic of entrepreneurial economic systems, and always has been. Many of these endeavors are undertaken by talented, skilled, intelligent people who work very, very hard.  Unfortunately, it takes more than these things to make a business successful.

Furthermore, there are millions of people who work very hard, very long hours and who barely manage to stay afloat economically.  For these people it is not a lack of work ethic or perseverance that is limiting their economic options or potential.  There are simply a great many factors involved, only two of which are relative educational attainment and communication ability.

It is a good thing for your family lineage that your grandparents and you have managed to achieve economic stability and prosperity. I have no doubt that hard work, perseverance and savvy have paid off for you. Unfortunately though, for the case of this discussion, your family's example is not a proof that lack of education or communication ability is irrelevant, or that possessing education and good communication skills is an advantage.



Pointing out someone's errors and mistakes, be it in grammar, spelling, knowledge, argument or technical expertise at some skill or endeavor, is not automatically an attempt to insult them. Much depends on the intent of the one pointing out the mistake, the manner in which they go about pointing it out, and what, if anything, they are willing to do to help the individual correct or avoid the mistake.  It is never easy to have our mistakes pointed out, and though we may benefit from the process, we, as people, still don't like to go through the process.

I am in complete agreement that people should always try to examine the content and validity of the message, rather than judge the messenger. Unfortunately, however, this is a case where the messenger's abilities in a certain area are going to directly affect the delivery of the message. You can not separate mode and quality of communication from the effectiveness and usefulness of the content communicated. We don't put up with chronic static and fadeouts in our cellphones, if there is anything we can do about it.  We wouldn't intentionally keep watching a TV broadcast that is full of interference, static and interruptions, unless we had no other choice. Why? Because these problems interfere with the content we require or wish to receive. The same principle is true when it comes to written and spoken communication.  This is one reason why, in many cases, poor written and spoken English skills will weed out job applicants at the start, no matter their experience or skill. Why would someone hire an individual who is a poor communicator when there are other acceptable applicants who communicate well?  

Among other adventures and careers in my life, I've been to school, I've taught in colleges and universities, and I've tutored and counseled individuals. I have seen more instances than I could possibly remember or count of  good people coming up short and being denied entrance into schools and programs, or denied jobs, because of poor communication skills.  If education and communication ability were not vital to modern personal and professional development, brick-and-mortar and virtual educational institutions would not be filled with returning and non-traditional students desperately trying to gain training, a degree and learn how to communicate more effectively in written and oral formats.  I have a box full of cards and letters from former students either thanking me profusely for the rigor I put them through, or, sadly, lamenting that they wished they had paid much more attention to what I was trying to get them to do.  I find this a fairly universal phenomena among teachers who truly care enough about their students to tell them the hard truths and demand the best from them
.
And, while anecdotal evidence is not ironclad proof, in this application it certainly reflects and reinforces what the hard data is trying to tell us all -- in a modern, complex, highly media-oriented society, communication skills are vital to your personal and professional life.  Be satisfied with poor quality and a lack of knowledge at your own risk.

Insulting others about their communication skills, especially in a video/computer game, is not going to be of much help to them, and it certainly isn't a substitute for good teaching or a real concern and involvement in someone's interests or life.

However, pointing out glaring and obvious and chronic poor communication habits is not the same thing as deliberately mocking or insulting, and like anything else, if it is taken as what it is, it can help people realize that they can do better, if they wish to.

Last, it is perfectly reasonable, at some point, to expect individuals to call attention to poor communication, especially in a public forum where communication is the intent.  It is perfectly unreasonable, at some point, to expect to be able to communicate poorly and not have others mention the fact, and suggest that if someone wishes to keep communicating or to communicate effectively, that they would be well served by doing so in a more technically correct and understandable manner.

do not get me wrong education is a good key.  and i myself  finished high school early threw hard work. grammar  was a week point of mine. but as for speech i can speak well enough i could sell  ice  in Alaska, and fire in hell.  i do not  disagree about school. what i find wrong is those who attempted to demean other for there lack of grammar and spelling. not all people in the world have the opportunity to go that far in school  thew family needs, or lack of  enough funding . last  just bad  teachers. and there are many when i was in school just there.  
But again there are people that do not learn well.  its not our place  to degrade them for this, piety them, or make them feel small in any way. our  task is to aid them  more on the lines if we under stand what they are trying to convey. explain there thought to  show it is better to  guide by example then to  run down.

Kruppcake #59 Posted Mar 04 2012 - 07:25

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View PostKittenkrad, on Mar 04 2012 - 06:34, said:

I like the fast tanks. So I am usually zipping about going 60kph+ when im typing messages, shooting and avoiding things like incoming shells and obstables.

As such my messages usually are not 100% accurate for spelling and grammar. I am busy killing....

To make fun of someone banging off messages of importance for your team is idiocy.

I wouldn't call it the height of idiocy. I usually reserve that distinction for politicians and their plans. However, it certainly isn't productive.  Battle coms and important messages aren't the place to be practicing your proofreading skills, unless the transmissions are so garbled as to be unintelligible.

However, when someone uses coms to start spouting off irrelevant chatter, abuse others or engage in childish behavior, they shouldn't be surprised if someone goes after them.  For example, messages such as "u r a tard moron," never fail to be amusing in their ironic and stunning display of ignorance. While I usually wouldn't bother to respond to that kind of thing myself, I have little problem with someone else answering that person by mocking their illiteracy.

If you are going to insult someone for being stupid, best you don't do it stupidly . . . .

Naughtius_Maximus #60 Posted Mar 04 2012 - 09:42

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If they're nailing up your spelling mistakes as the only reason why they can bash you they're just trying to gratify themselves. They're using a fallacy that allows them to look down on you even though you've kicked them in the ass and mopped them up.

Oh, and have you heard of the GIFT?

http://www.penny-arc...omic/2004/03/19

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